OR Team DG: 2012/13 Week #5 @ Pier

[George A.]

Originally Posted by TreeLove

I will examine your match sheet at the scoring meeting tonight, figure out what happened, and with Jordan's oversight, determine its legality, or lack thereof.

WHAT......Jevon asked the same question 8 post ago... me and Shawn were the only ones that didn't ignor him ....

Is there some kinda of conspiracy going on here against Vapor Trails

[Wes Hansen]

Originally Posted by jevon

Question. If a team is playing with 7 and puts their 7th player in the 5th singles match, how is the other team able to put up a doubles team against said player? Whatever happened to the rule that you can defend dubs with Cali but you can't put a Cali player in if you are filling out the matchups first?

3.2.3 is the closest rule but doesn't completely address it.

Damn good question. I hope you eventually get an answer.

[Pizzel]

The quotes below are quotes taken from Jordan's initial posts regarding this seasons change in format. It seems to me that they explicitly indicate when a second doubles match is allowed:

1. If both teams field 8 players
2. If one team fields 8 and one fields 7. Even then, it is up to the team that fields 8 if they want to play in a second doubles match.

Originally Posted by Sausage Fingers

Team roster size will be going up to 8 players to help make it possible for more teams to field players at each event. You still only need 7 players to get the bonus point and if all 8 show up then the bonus singles becomes a bonus doubles match playing for the same match point.

Originally Posted by Sausage Fingers

Then, if the teams both show up with 7 players, they can play each other for a bonus match point, but it will not be a forfeit if one side cannot field the 7th player. If both teams show up with 8 players the bonus singles match becomes a doubles match. If one team has 8 and the other team has 7 then the team with 8 can decide if they want to sit a player and play a bonus singles match or play dubs against the other team's cali player in a bonus dubs match.

[Wes Hansen]

So, sit a person out if you have 8, or give the other team an advantage.

What logic dictates a cali plzyer gets 4 throws a hole against dubs, while the other team gets 6 throws
per hole, regardless of rating?
If cali rated abouve real dubs, sure, but otherwise it is a sham.

Not an issue with our team this week, but thats onerule that has no logic behind it.

[Sausage Fingers]

Originally Posted by Pizzel

The quotes below are quotes taken from Jordan's initial posts regarding this seasons change in format. It seems to me that they explicitly indicate when a second doubles match is allowed:

1. If both teams field 8 players
2. If one team fields 8 and one fields 7. Even then, it is up to the team that fields 8 if they want to play in a second doubles match.

Maybe I am getting soft in my dotage. The intent of the new roster size was to increase the number of players who can compete in every match. This has resulted in match up combinations that I did not anticipate with the rules this year. I have allowed more this year than ever before, but I was trying to increase the tdg goodness for everybody.

[Wes Hansen]

Would it be correct hen then, the team with 8 could decice Not to play against a cali 7th man player, then they win the match by Not agreei ng to a dubs match against a cali player?

Two 1000 rated plYers play against a 900 rated cali...
They get 6 throws per hole, 900 gets 4. No way that makes any sense.

[jdinteg]

Cali is definitely a disadvantage, but I play my best rounds when I play Cali, and I have to play smarter than two others. Isn't that the point? Don't we want to encourage dubs vs dubs instead of Cali vs Dubs.

[Lund]

Originally Posted by Wes Hansen

Would it be correct hen then, the team with 8 could decice Not to play against a cali 7th man player, then they win the match by Not agreei ng to a dubs match against a cali player?

The way I understand this scenario is that no one wins or loses that match, regardless of which side chose not to play it first. It is an optional, "bonus" match.

Two 1000 rated plYers play against a 900 rated cali...
They get 6 throws per hole, 900 gets 4. No way that makes any sense.

Well the 900 player is also getting spotted 10 shots. And are you suggesting
an alternative where the cali player gets 2 throws from every lie? Then that player would have a huge advantage. I do not believe that playing cali should be a reward, at least in the team disc setting where all of the rules are set up to try and encourage/reward teams to field more players not less.

[Wes Hansen]

Why eould a 900 level with 6 throws have an advajtage over 2 1000 rated plzyers over 2 1000 rzted players with the same amo7nt of throws, even wkth the handi ap.... which is Supp8sed to equal things out?

I cant follow the logic.

Sorry... still on tiny tablet.

[Wes Hansen]

Oh,
So if I refused to play twp players against the higher rated cali then there is no point at stake?
It would be great if the results of playing by the rules were clear.
Or teams didnt feel the need to win by not displaying sportsmanship....
LiKE when you know the other team is mak7ng and error, point it out rather than tak7ng a queztionable win rather thanbeing goodsports. ( sorry sat team that got screwed.)

[jevon]

So the advantage goes to the team with more players, not so much advantage if you're filling out the matchups first or second...

[Lund]

Originally Posted by Wes Hansen

Why eould a 900 level with 6 throws have an advajtage over 2 1000 rated plzyers over 2 1000 rzted players with the same amo7nt of throws, even wkth the handi ap.... which is Supp8sed to equal things out?

I cant follow the logic.

Sorry... still on tiny tablet.

Really?
Yes, take the ratings out of it for a second (cause that is what the handicaps are for) and assume for discussion that all players have a similar rating.

Because you get a practice shot before every real shot. And to top it off you can use your practice shot if you want. Don't you learn or benefit more from your own practice shot then you do by watching your partner throw?

Don't you like your chances of making 1 of your 2 putts from the same location (cali) better than the chances of either you or your partner making your only putt?

[Lund]

Originally Posted by Wes Hansen

Oh,
So if I refused to play twp players against the higher rated cali then there is no point at stake?
It would be great if the results of playing by the rules were clear.

UNOFFICIAL POSTING
(Just relaying what I see because I feel like the rules are well written):

3.2.3.
The bonus singles/doubles match can only be initiated each round if both teams want to field all 7 or 8 players.

[Lund]

Originally Posted by jevon

So the advantage goes to the team with more players, not so much advantage if you're filling out the matchups first or second...

Jordan - correct me if I am wrong.

If you are filling out the matches second (and assuming we are talking about the bonus match because the other matches have been filled) you do have a choice.

If first team puts a single player in the bonus match the 2nd team can:
a) put 1 player there and play singles
b) put 2 players there and force the other team to play cali
c) opt out of the match altogether thereby forcing the first team player to sit

To me the advantage is with the second team, no?

If the first team doesn't want to play the bonus match they have that choice when they fill out the lineup card - leave blank. Then the 2nd team does not have a choice....

As a team captain I have have contacted the opposing captain before every match, usually a few days before and again on the morning of the match. I tell them "We have X number of players and will play everyone both rounds if given the choice." Are we giving away some strategy or advantage? Probably, but we (DARKHORSE!) all just want to play as much golf as possible and would gladly play cali against a doubles team rather than sit. Obviously the other captain has every right to withhold telling me in return how many players they have or say that they will wait to see what the bonus matchup looks like before committing during the round they are setting lineups second. But guess what every captain so far has also told me how many players they will have and whether they will play both rounds so that everyone can plan their day accordingly.

[Sausage Fingers]

I'd just like to state for the record that Lundy is DA MAN!

There have been some weird lineups set this year, I'll be the first to admit. And probably some of them could be construed as shenanigans. I have been very lenient in allowing these strange lineup choices. We have 3 weeks before the next match and I'll see if we can come up with something to print on the back of the match sheets to help clarify some of these questions.

[Wes Hansen]

Jordan,
Can you take a moment and address the difference between pdga and tdg ratings.
Are our tdg ratings so much higher because the field has a lower overall rating, or...?
Always wondered...

[Sausage Fingers]

Originally Posted by Wes Hansen

Jordan,
Can you take a moment and address the difference between pdga and tdg ratings.
Are our tdg ratings so much higher because the field has a lower overall rating, or...?
Always wondered...

* I THINK * They are higher than the pdga ratings because we are using the original spreadsheet the pdga used to calculate ratings. From what I've heard the new formulas address the creep factor much better than the original ones did. I do not think that Chuck Kennedy (or whoever is in charge of the ratings file) is letting the current spreadsheet out of house.

But in truth the math is higher than I understand, so I am just relating things I've heard from various conversations I've had about this topic.

I also think that because we have fun and the competition isn't as hard core as it can be in a PDGA tourney, that fewer players experience the bad round that brings most pdga ratings down.

My tdg rating for the year has only risen 5 points from my pdga rating, but I have been very inconsistent with my play this year.

[Wes Hansen]

Originally Posted by Lund

UNOFFICIAL POSTING
(Just relaying what I see because I feel like the rules are well written):

3.2.3.
The bonus singles/doubles match can only be initiated each round if both teams want to field all 7 or 8 players.

I continue to forget the strategy of tdg sometimes contradicts the spirit of playing as many team members as possible.

NOT a criticism of tdg, but my own failure to distinguish between having fun and using strategery to win.

[Lund]

Originally Posted by Wes Hansen

I continue to forget the strategy of tdg sometimes contradicts the spirit of playing as many team members as possible.
NOT a criticism of tdg, but my own failure to distinguish between having fun and using strategery to win.

If I am understanding you correctly then this is another area where our opinions differ. I believe that the strategy of tdg is to play as many team members as possible and that Jordan has gone to great lengths to write the rules (7 man bonus point, everyone plays singles, an extra player on each team this year etc) to encourage this.

The problem is that there will always be people looking for some perceived advantage that can be gained by exploiting an "opportunity" that exists because a rule doesn't explicitly say you cannot do something. Rather than asking for prior clarification many people would much rather seize some "opportunity" first and then wait until the round has started before jumping forth with the whole "no the rules don't say you can't do this!" defense.

And then ultimately everything gets lumped back under the strategy versus sportsmanship umbrella debate as if those 2 things have to be mutually exclusive or something.

I can only speak for the DARKHORSE! We would much rather lose playing against your full and best team than win by tricking or forcing you into sitting someone just because there is no rule that says "you can't try to trick the other team."

More golf!

[Wes Hansen]

Actually, we agree.....
Though I wouldnt mind winning as well as having fun.
Your comment regarding some folks feeling strategy and sportsmanship being two separate issues for many is on the money. Hence the occasional win when one team "wins" by the line up mistake of their opponents.... even though the right thing to do is point it out and win on the course. I feel sportsmanship always comes before strategy in importance.

Ps. Neither my cali nor line up comments are based on any actual event that affected our team's record.
I played dubs twice the first week, but that only kept us from the sweep, not the win.