Dear Chuck Kennedy, How Do You Call This Putt? - PDGA

General Scales · #1 June 27th, 2012, 10:53 AM

The putt has been hanging like this on the basket for 60-90 seconds before the person started video taping. What's the ruling during a tournament? Pretty cool to watch though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVdRVjtEl9s&feature=youtu.be

mazza · #2 June 27th, 2012, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by General Scales

The putt has been hanging like this on the basket for 60-90 seconds before the person started video taping. What's the ruling during a tournament? Pretty cool to watch though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVdRVjtEl9s&feature=youtu.be

well since it was moving from the wind. i would say it was not at rest. then the fact that it fell into the cage. at that time the disc had come to rest inside the cage. therefore i would call it a good putt

Sam · #3 June 27th, 2012, 11:43 AM

In my opinion, this is a good putt. The disc was wobbling on the rim for the entire time so never actually came to rest until it fell into the bucket and laid flat.

JNichols · #4 June 27th, 2012, 05:06 PM

If the disc was not "At Rest" for at least about a 2 count before the player stepped from behind his marker, he could have been called for a Foot Fault, TECHNICALLY, couldn't he??? You CANNOT be in Front of your marker Before the disc COMES TO REST... Assuming that it was an Inside the Circle putt....
LOL. I LOVE this Game.

Very Cool video to see. Thanks for posting it!

General Scales · #5 June 27th, 2012, 10:28 PM

I believe this person hit chains and bounced to this position.

ericedge · #6 June 27th, 2012, 11:32 PM

Your disc does not have to be at rest before you move toward it. Inside the 10m circle you must demonstrate balance before you contact the playing surface forward of your lie.

A couple of years ago at the Aloha Sushi Classic, Gordy K. had a very similar looking result of a putt. Upside down, balanced on the nubs, rocking in the wind. His didn't fall into the basket, it just stayed there. We gave him the putt. My rational was that the rule says the disc has to be supported by the chains or the bottom or the inside surface of the lower entrapment. So where does the inside surface of the lower entrapment end? I say that spot must be on the exact top of the nubs or top rail. Like the line of play the line itself has no width so a disc that is rocking on top of the nubs is touching the inside of the cylinder at least half the time. Close enough in my book, advantage goes to the player.

I know that the recent rule change about legal putts were made to make "bad" putts not count (wedges, entering through the side etc.). Personally I think I would simplify the rule to say that any putt that is fully supported by the basket (and nothing else) counts. That would mean some "bad" putts would count, things like discs resting on top and wedges, but it would be simple which I think is a benefit. Currently there are still some "bad" putts that can count, like a disc that bounces off a tree into the basket or one that enters through the side but is not witnessed by anyone. There are plenty of great putts that don't end up too! Anyway, just my opinion.

TYVEK · #7 June 28th, 2012, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JNichols

If the disc was not "At Rest" for at least about a 2 count before the player stepped from behind his marker, he could have been called for a Foot Fault, TECHNICALLY, couldn't he??? You CANNOT be in Front of your marker Before the disc COMES TO REST... Assuming that it was an Inside the Circle putt....
LOL. I LOVE this Game.

Very Cool video to see. Thanks for posting it!

i believe that is actually "you can not proceed past your marker before displaying controlled balance"

i dont believe it has anything to do with the disc being at rest or not, just wheather you are balanced and in control or wheather you are falling forward due to lack of control of your body.

Chuck Kennedy · #8 June 28th, 2012, 07:20 AM

Putt is not in. This is similar to the ruling for a disc that lands in water 803.03F. Once the disc has landed in a position based solely on the energy imparted by the thrower, the disc is considered at rest. Further movement from that location due to wind, gravity or water currents do not change the position. There are several examples like disc landing in water or this one with the disc on the basket rim where the disc is 'relatively at rest' (specific phrase not defined in the rules yet) where further movement doesn't change its position. Another example is a very windy day where the putt is caught securely in the chains but the chains and disc continue to move in the wind. The group allows the player to remove the disc and hole out even though the disc never stopped. It was "relatively at rest" in this case just like the disc floating in water or the disc in this video.

What it boils down to is the group has the power to say that a disc is 'at rest' once it appears the disc has gotten to the position on the target or the playing surface (which includes water) from the thrower's energy (perhaps waiting just a few seconds). Note that the target and playing surface are special exceptions (see Interference rule 803.07B) to a disc landing anywhere else above or below the playing surface. In those cases, the disc is marked once the player gets to the point above/below its location regardless whether it's moving or not.

General Scales · #9 June 28th, 2012, 10:22 AM

Thanks Chuck, I'm sure that I'll never see this happen in a tournament but it's nice to have the clarification.

JNichols · #10 June 28th, 2012, 11:58 AM

Chuck to the rescue. Thanks Chuck!

cefire · #11 June 28th, 2012, 04:45 PM

Thanks Chuck, very interesting!

Is there a special case then for a disc caught in tree and then falling out of the tree within the specified time limit due to wind? Assuming 2m was called for the tournament of course.

JNichols · #12 June 28th, 2012, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cefire

Thanks Chuck, very interesting!

Is there a special case then for a disc caught in tree and then falling out of the tree within the specified time limit due to wind? Assuming 2m was called for the tournament of course.

Chuck Posted under rule 803.03F~"Once the disc has landed in a position based solely on the energy imparted by the thrower, the disc is considered at rest. Further movement from that location due to wind, gravity or water currents do not change the position."

I would take that as a NO for a Special Case involving the Two Meter Rule. Interested to hear what Chuck has to say on this one!

Chuck Kennedy · #13 June 29th, 2012, 07:01 AM

As I pointed out, a disc landing on the target or the playing surface is handled a little differently from a disc landing anywhere else above or below the playing surface. Essentially, a disc lying above or below the playing surface is never "at rest." However, once the player arrives at the disc, its position gets marked on the playing surface even if the disc is moving around. So, it doesn't matter if the group wants to call a player's disc above 2m "at rest" for a penalty right after the player throws it. The player has the right to get to their disc before the final position of the disc is pinned down. That means the disc may fall down before the player gets there and it's played at that point. Of course, it could fall out of the tree and roll OB and that would be where it ends up. So if your disc is in a tree, there's no 2m penalty and there's OB nearby, you might want to hurry to your disc to mark it just in case it might fall out of the tree before you get there.

mowens404 · #14 June 29th, 2012, 09:01 AM

I don't understand why that is not in... It went above the plain of the basket, under the top ring of chains. If it were not wobbling would it be considered in? During team golf this winter we lost a match by 1 stroke because a putt that landed like this was counted in. And I agreed with the ruling.

mowens404 · #15 June 29th, 2012, 09:45 AM

"The definition of holing out has been tightened up a bit. A putt that sticks in the side of the tray, or hangs outside the tray from one of the nubs, no longer counts."
That putt is not hanging from the nub outside of the tray. It is balanced on the line.

mowens404 · #16 June 29th, 2012, 11:23 AM

This is what I understand as "hangs outside the tray from one of the nubs." I would not consider our first example as hanging on a nub.

Tried to upload a picture, but it didn't work. Picture is two posts below.

cefire · #17 June 29th, 2012, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck Kennedy

As I pointed out, a disc landing on the target or the playing surface is handled a little differently from a disc landing anywhere else above or below the playing surface. Essentially, a disc lying above or below the playing surface is never "at rest." However, once the player arrives at the disc, its position gets marked on the playing surface even if the disc is moving around. So, it doesn't matter if the group wants to call a player's disc above 2m "at rest" for a penalty right after the player throws it. The player has the right to get to their disc before the final position of the disc is pinned down. That means the disc may fall down before the player gets there and it's played at that point. Of course, it could fall out of the tree and roll OB and that would be where it ends up. So if your disc is in a tree, there's no 2m penalty and there's OB nearby, you might want to hurry to your disc to mark it just in case it might fall out of the tree before you get there.

Thanks!

mowens404 · #18 June 29th, 2012, 11:26 AM

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=46255792042...type=1&theater

Chuck Kennedy · #19 June 29th, 2012, 09:09 PM

Quote:

I don't understand why that is not in... It went above the plain of the basket, under the top ring of chains. If it were not wobbling would it be considered in? During team golf this winter we lost a match by 1 stroke because a putt that landed like this was counted in. And I agreed with the ruling.

The disc "officially" stopped - balanced on the rail - based on how the rules are interpreted. It later fell in after its position was already fixed as the point under the rail on the ground. A disc balancing on the rail is not in since the disc is not supported by the bottom or inside of the basket per 803.13B.

mine all mine · #20 June 30th, 2012, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck Kennedy

The disc "officially" stopped - balanced on the rail - based on how the rules are interpreted. It later fell in after its position was already fixed as the point under the rail on the ground. A disc balancing on the rail is not in since the disc is not supported by the bottom or inside of the basket per 803.13B.

The question is still, where does the inside of the basket end? is there a horizontal line that extends from the top of the rail or the nubs, or a vertical line that can be breached by a disc resting on that line? I understand a disc that is hanging on the outside of the basket, but in this instance it is hanging mostly inside the basket