And Now a Word from Brian "Maceman" Mace

[TreeLove]

Believe me, it's not lack of dollars or discs that burns out disc golf event directors, it's something much less tangible than that...

[JMan]

Wait Jub ... "profess the love and make money?" What's the problem making money doing something you love. In fact I encourage kids to find a way to make money doing something they love everyday, doing what I love, teaching, and I do make money doing it. Not a lot mind you, but I'm making my house payment on time. Do you hate your job Jub? Then what we have here is a perfect opportunity for you to move down to Oregon and create and run an Oregon Series of tournaments, so you can make money doing something you love. If your main argument hinges solely on being upset because some folks have found a way to make a little bank doing something they love, and you haven't figured it out, well that sounds like jealousy. Dude, that's not healthy.

Hey folks maybe we have read Jub wrong on transparency; maybe Jub wants to see the books so he can figure out how to make money and love doing it. Then he can move to Oregon and guide us into the Disc Golfing future. If this indeed the case I say let him see the books, learn the ways of the Force and get Oregon DG back on track.

[LJ Jubner]

J I actually work and have worked for myself for over 25 years. As a professional window cleaner I am use to methodical effort. You people can't seem to read my words. When I say..."They say the do it for the love of the game and give it all back sweat, money and time but what they are really doing is making money off of us. In as many places, ways, and means possible.

As far as Ore series goes, I am more inclinde to participate with the larger NW series, picking the plumbs of the best NW Disc golf events to form a true Preimer NW series.

[Sam]

I KNEW there was a reason our local TDs started looking like this...



It's all of the money they have been making off of us players! BASTARDS!

[DexterHawk]

I'm coming late to this thread, but...
I firmly believe that for our sport to grow we need to break with the "it's great because it's cheap" mentality. The reality is that our sport can only grow as far as there are people who get paid to help it grow. When you buy a new disc you are helping to contribute to the INNOVAtion of the gear and helping to sustain a retailer that brings that to the market. When you pay a greens fee, you are saying yes I want this course here. When you pay a tournament fee you are saying yes Mr. or Mrs. TD I want you to run more events for me. A hardy hand shake and a teary thank you can't pay the rent and if we want people to work to build our sport we need to support them finacially. There is not an unlimited supply of state park land... eventually our sport is going to need to privatize. Some out there seem to view that as a worst case scenario. Why? Now, don't get me wrong... I fear the evils of capitalism as much as the next tree hugging pinko public high school educator. But, the future of our sport would be so much brighter if people would stop viewing the comodafication of our sport as sacrilege and started viewing it as what it is... PROGRESS

[JMan]

But Jub, you make money off people, do you show your books to all your customers? Even if they ask?

Breaking news people ... people make money off of other people and institutions! This reporter learned that people trade personal time, blood, sweat and tears for, get this ... MONEY. Further investigation shows that this type of exchange has been occuring for quite some time. A deeper study shows that some people make money doing things they love, and they do those types of things for other people who love the service provided. Although, in stark contrast, the same study found that there is a very small faction that seem resentful of people who profess to love the service they provide and make money providing that service. But, you heard it here first folks, it seems people make money off other people, love it or hate it, it seems it's been going on for some time.

We'd like to thank our sponsers 'The Flat Earth Society' who ask you to remember that the Earth is only round when viewed from space - whatever that is. And the fine folks at Whambulance, if you need help dial 1-877-WHAAAAA

We now return you to our regularly scheduled program "Mid-Day Crepitation" already in progress.

[Matt B.]

Originally Posted by JMan

Wait Jub ... "profess the love and make money?" What's the problem making money doing something you love. In fact I encourage kids to find a way to make money doing something they love everyday, doing what I love, teaching, and I do make money doing it. Not a lot mind you, but I'm making my house payment on time. Do you hate your job Jub? Then what we have here is a perfect opportunity for you to move down to Oregon and create and run an Oregon Series of tournaments, so you can make money doing something you love. If your main argument hinges solely on being upset because some folks have found a way to make a little bank doing something they love, and you haven't figured it out, well that sounds like jealousy. Dude, that's not healthy.

Hey folks maybe we have read Jub wrong on transparency; maybe Jub wants to see the books so he can figure out how to make money and love doing it. Then he can move to Oregon and guide us into the Disc Golfing future. If this indeed the case I say let him see the books, learn the ways of the Force and get Oregon DG back on track.

Unfortunately disc golfers are a lot like bucket crabs. The local promoter is the first crab, and the players are the other crabs in the bucket. Most bucket crabs don't know or even care what is going on. But there's that one super sleuth crab that has appointed himself as the local watch crab. He's on the job keeping anyone from "getting rich" or gaining freedom, and if there is the hint of progress or something appears slightly out of line he will be on the scene. But not really, he will be out there somewhere talking really loud, but never taking the time to do all of the home work. Preaching in his outside voice about the perceived injustice but never really doing a complete investigation on the situation. Gathering all the facts "I need" as proof, and then pushing through the conviction without a trial and moving straight to the punishment

[SMOKIN JOE]

I only see one person,and a few ball courses doing it right
it seems strange to me or i must look at it real differently
the park in my back yard isn't mine
the baskets aren't mine
why should i profit off them
why should i profit at all i already have a job
you want a business buy some land and some baskets
there are only a few who rely on dg to feed their families that i respect
everyone else comes for compitition and friendship on land that we all own a part of
the local club or a local charity should be the recipiant of any profit
and yes for the love of the sport
just being thanked and seeing people glad to be there and leaving knowing the had a good time is what i do it for
some people just don't want to volunteer and that still o.k. but they should do it on there own land not one i own a part of

[Sam]

No... I disagree with this.

It's not the land or the baskets you are making money off of. It is your TIME that you would be compensated for. If you don't feel that your time is worth being compensated for, that is your decision. If you would rather put that money back into the tournament to cover expenses or fatten the payouts, that is your decision. If you decided that you wanted this money to go to your local club or some charity that you pick, again, that is your decision. If you wanted to pocket an extra buck or two from each player, I don't think that anyone should have anything to say about that as long it was clear from the start that you were doing this.

What bothers me is when a TD decides to do this - well within their right - and then catch flak for it. It is clear that we all have different ideas about right and wrong when it comes to this issue. I think it might be time for us to draw a line similar to the one that was drawn with the 2 meter rule. Some TDs like this rule and employ it. Some TDs don't like this rule and don't use it. No matter which decision the TD makes there are ALWAYS people who grumble about it. Neither is right or wrong at this point as the PDGA has made it clear that this is the TD's decision. I think it should be the same with compensation.

[Leftybagger]

I have kind of stayed away from this... If a TD decides to take a buck or two from each player, more power to them!! It is well within their right to do so, PDGA 2009 Tour Standards:

TD/Host Club Event Fee: Provided an event meets or exceeds tier payout requirements,
TDs/clubs are allowed to retain 10% of the net entry fees as an event organization and
management fee up to the following maximums: NT $750, A $400, B $200, C $100. TDs/clubs
may choose to donate this fee back to the event as part of their sponsorship.

[Flatroc]

The two meter rule stinks...............
IMO it should be 7 feet.
If you play in any SOWS, SOSS, WBDS, Tossin' @ Lawson gigs it WILL be 7 feet.
On another note:
We may start charging "Fees for OB's"

What cracks me up with this gig making money thing is how it's evolved.
Back in the 90's a lot of TD's were accused of this by other TD's who now support it.
I've changed my mindset over the years and feel it's OK to profit (a bit) from all the blood, sweat and tears that goes into a gig.
Example would be last years WBDS.
I wanted to give the ace pot money back to the gig, so I asked all the players what we should do with it and most agreed to stick it in the club.
We did and then we used it to help buy another basket.
Thanks again by the way to all of last years WBDS peeps.

[SMOKIN JOE]

the pga throws multi million dollar tournaments all year long and the people running the tournaments never see any cash, they may get some perks and a tee shirt or something,
they do it to be apart of something special,to be there ,if running a tournament makes you feel like you deserve money
then it seems alot easier to play open and win or go get a part time job
the hours i spend compared to what i could get in return doesn't add up to very good hourly wage,
let's see the pdga said i could charge up to 100.00 no more than 15% or purse,
hours put in,75
1.34 per hour ,i'd look for a new job
being a t.d. isn't a job that can be paid for it has to be volunteered for
the club selling discs,espiecially at some of the prices you pay turning in your skript,money can be made there to offset tournament costs,
i would not have a legal right to accept money for my services on public property
the club has such a liecense through the state
most cities and counties also reqiure a seperate liecense to conduct business on public land
also my club is not set up to have employees,that opens up a whole nother can with the state, so i could not legally pay myself to t.d.

[Sam]

Hey Terry, I really don't want to get into it any further because I have said my piece but several things were quite wrong in your post.

Being a TD is a job that can be paid.
You do have a legal right to accept money for your services on public property
Most clubs have not registered with the state, I am guessing, so would have no more legal right to do this than you would.

I could go on but I don't see the point. Maybe some time in person over a beer.

[SMOKIN JOE]

a beer allways sounds good
and no i don't have a right without a liecense
being all legal i know these things

[Sam]

Totally depends on the nature of the services, when you collect the fees and how much the total dollar amount you make is. This issue is not as black and white as you make it out to be.

[SMOKIN JOE]

the issue on a liecense is totally clear
being big enough to come after may be a different story
weather or not you have to report depends on how much money transpiered and profit being made
you legelly need a liecense to sell lemonaide on the street coner if your on public land

[Ol' Bob]

I gotcher TD right here, man:








On de up'n'up!

[Flash]

Originally Posted by RonTheWhip

i loved the article, like where Sam's head is at, not so sure what Jub is trying to say, and am preparing to run a few more C tiers this year. For all of you out there, you can expect me to get paid for my time. I'm NOT volunteering, I'm offering a service, and all of you who want to take advantage of it, are going to pay for it. It will be a small price, but paid all the same. I'm sorry to see that legends of the game like Brian Mace are finding themselves empty and jaded. Mace dropped a lot of wisdom in that letter and Oregon would benefit greatly from heeding its message.

peace,
whip

Well you know what Dion, you can go karate chop a chopstick, you are already entitled to take a fee according to the PDGA and now you are rubbing our noses in it like your trying to be all financially transparent or something. I guess everyone wants to get rich off of disc golf, so if your YouTube videos don't get the expected number of hits to attract advertisement money you turn to disc golf

[JMan]

Yesterday a friend and I were going through some old piles of papers in my office and came accross the original DGA booklet on DG, along with stacks of old IFA literature and it brought these thoughts, for what they're worth. Many like the old school idea of DG as a bastion of hippy mentality, do stuff because you love it and give it away, cause hey we're all cool right? Well even before DG hit the market, folks were running touraments, making and selling disc related products. They weren't giving any of it away free then so I find it funny that some think it should be given away free today. As soon as we old schoolers watched the formation of the pdga we marked it as the end of the hippy mentality when it came to DG, not that if ever exsited off the course anyway. It's about time you folks, who for some reason still try to deify a long dead social movement and super impose those long dead ideals on DG, and get used to the idea of trickle down economics and DG. The pdga sets the rules when it comes to events and the money and let those trickle down to the masses who are expected to comply and profit accordingly, provided the ruling organization gets its cut. And ultimately it really doesn't matter. Go play the game, enjoy yourself, but get real, when it comes to playing in, and running events, IT'S ALWAYS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE A BUSINESS MODEL. Quit whining, even hippies take advantage of economics, otherwise where do you think David Crosby got enough money to buy a liver? It wasn't from giving away records.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled corporate sponsor, or employer.

[Ol' Bob]

Thank you, John Stossel.

All right, all you deadbeat hippies, get out of here. Sergeant at Arms...!

Will our discs get their RFID chips before the disc golfers do? Actually, a law against chipping discs will serve the market, while chipping golfers will serve the Order.