2012 Beaver State Fling Amateur Lottery Results & Wait List

[Kenny B]

I think the lottery system is 100% fair: equal chance for all who want to play. First-come, first-serve used to also be fair; that was until the event filled up in 3 minutes online, then it was no longer fair to those without good internet connections. Increasing the cost is not fair for obvious reasons (well, obvious to me anyway). Would an entry fee of $100 be enough to reduce the entrants? How about $200? $300? Whatever it would be, it's way too much. Qualifying events would not be fair to players far away.

Qualifying events, however, are very intriguing indeed. They are inherently fair as long as people have an equal opportunity/cost to attend the events. If qualifying events could be used in a fair manner, they would probably be accepted by the disc golf community.

What I'm getting at is a small number of spots reserved in each division for qualifiers. So, for MA1, a pool of 72, hold 12 spots in reserve for the top 3 finishers at 4 separate qualifying events. That leaves 60 spots remaining. Now, the hard part: do you let the players who entered qualifying events, but didn't qualify, enter the lottery? If so, they have an unfair advantage because local players could have higher chances of getting in. If you don't let them enter the lottery. Well, then they'll get pissed off!!!

[Matt B.]

Originally Posted by J Monette

Jeff,

I think the only way to make all of us happy is to extend the number of tournament days to allow for more people to get in. It is the only major that is close to the Pacific NW. It is always going to have a large amount of people wanting to play in it. It can't be done in 2 days without going through this every year. I agree that the ratings requirements or the qualifiers would be unfair to folks not in the Portland area and it truly doesn't solve the problem. The problem is that disc golf is booming in the Pacific NW and people want to get in on the biggest and most fun tournament of the year. Speaking from the point of view of one of these boomers, who also has landed in the 90's on the waitlist for 2 years in a row, something has got to be done to increase the capacity of this venue!

Jeff

Step right up and make it happen!

[Kenny B]

Originally Posted by J Monette

Jeff,

I think the only way to make all of us happy is to extend the number of tournament days to allow for more people to get in. It is the only major that is close to the Pacific NW. It is always going to have a large amount of people wanting to play in it. It can't be done in 2 days without going through this every year. I agree that the ratings requirements or the qualifiers would be unfair to folks not in the Portland area and it truly doesn't solve the problem. The problem is that disc golf is booming in the Pacific NW and people want to get in on the biggest and most fun tournament of the year. Speaking from the point of view of one of these boomers, who also has landed in the 90's on the waitlist for 2 years in a row, something has got to be done to increase the capacity of this venue!

Jeff

I agree that it would be sweet to have a massively increased capacity. I've thought of a number of ways this could be done but they all add up to chaos for the TDs. Lengthening the event would be a good way, but can A-tiers be that long? Also, would it be odd to have the Ams play more days than the Pros? I'm guessing the touring Pros would not come so consistently if it was a 4 or 5 day event.

[ski2man]

[J Monette]

Kenny B,

I agree with the point that you wouldn't want the pro side of the event lengthened, they have other tourneys to head off to. The Ams are really the problem here. The amateur championships are longer than 2 days and have a very large capacity, so I don't think it violates rules for an A tier event. Also, the TD's definitely couldn't magically squeeze 180 more people into the two day event. Would a Thursday through Sunday event add enough spots to stop the majority of the belly aching?

Ski2man,

Where did you get the video of me when I found out I had lost the lottery again?

[Kenny B]

One of my older ideas the received no traction in the past...advance the players to the final round on sunday by their finish in a pool.

------------------------------
BSF as it sits now for Ams: two pools, C (AM1) and D (the rest).

Saturday AM: C on East and D on West
Saturday PM: D on East and C on West
Sunday AM: C on East and D on West

------------------------------
Proposition: eight pools, C (AM1), D (the rest), E (AM1), F (the rest), G (AM1), H (the rest), I (AM1), and J (the rest).

For the weekend before the Pro's arrive:
Friday AM: C on East and D on West
Friday PM: D on East and C on West
Saturday AM: E on East and F on West
Saturday PM: F on East and E on West
Sunday AM: G on East and H on West
Sunday PM: H on East and G on West

For the Pro NT weekend:
Saturday AM: I* on East and J* on West
Saturday PM: J* on East and I* on West

Create new pools K (AM1) and L (the rest) that are made up of the top 25% (based on finish, not score, due to weather factors) in each of pools C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J.

*NOTE: pools I and J can consist of all out-of-town players so that they don't have to travel to Portland twice.

Sunday AM: K on East and L on West

Cool parts:
-two weekend of awesome disc golf
-8 x 72 = 576 happy players

Not so cool parts:
-TDs have 4 amatuer check in days!! Can you image the player pack chaos alone?
-Who in the heck is going to volunteer to work these days when everyone is playing?

[TreeLove]

Originally Posted by J Monette

Jeff,

I think the only way to make all of us happy is to extend the number of tournament days to allow for more people to get in. It is the only major that is close to the Pacific NW. It is always going to have a large amount of people wanting to play in it. It can't be done in 2 days without going through this every year. I agree that the ratings requirements or the qualifiers would be unfair to folks not in the Portland area and it truly doesn't solve the problem. The problem is that disc golf is booming in the Pacific NW and people want to get in on the biggest and most fun tournament of the year. Speaking from the point of view of one of these boomers, who also has landed in the 90's on the waitlist for 2 years in a row, something has got to be done to increase the capacity of this venue!

Jeff

Well, technically, the BSF is an NT, a National Tour Elite Series event (for Pros, a SuperTour (A-tier) for Ams), not a Major. Majors in the Pacific Northwest are even more rare, wait: has there ever been one at all?

[stevegelhar]

Originally Posted by Bullseye

Bryan,

I had initially requested that exact thing last year and the PDGA declined to allow it. I can see both sides of this argument, but I think I may need to push them a little harder next year.

So, while that might work for MA1. What about all of the other divisions? Hell, we have 32 Advanced Masters and 15 Advanced Grandmasters on the wait list, and those divisions are only going to get bigger. Do we set ratings caps for everyone? See the can-o-worms you open up there?

How about this: If we continue to attract more and more female golfers (as we should) they will continue to pull slots from the men. What then? Imagine how pissed Amber will be when THAT happens!

I'm really just throwing these questions out there because they are real issues to be addressed, and the answers might look more obvious than they really are. Whatever the case we need to do something. Even the lottery, which is as fair as we could come up with, is far from perfect. Hell, the whole process seems borderline unmanageable. Well, I take that back. It can be managed... just not if I want to keep any friends.

Jeff

Jeff,

I think prior to next summer some thought should be put into what the goal of the amateur BSF is. If you'd/we'd like it to be the "best of the best amateurs in each division come to Oregon to compete in one of the biggest tournaments in the country", the lottery doesn't work. If the goal is "fairness to all disc golfers, regardless of division or ability, to compete within respective divisions", the lottery works. Being a competitive MM1er this year I'd love to say it's "best of the best" since that'd be great for Oregon, but because of the random lottery you can really only say that about the pro side of the tourney.

That said, it may be the PDGA's perspective that amateur events, even "major" ones, should remain fair and less competitive (perhaps, unfairly IMO, to encourage the better ams to move up). If this is the case, then I guess the lottery is something all ams have to accept. I can't help but be disappointed though that the BSF, the highest profile tournament in Oregon, won't have participants who represent the best amateur disc golfers that Oregon (and the country) has to offer, unless of course if it randomly falls that way (which'll never happen).

Steve Gelhar

( Also note that, while I'm bummed I didn't make the cut in MM1, I accept that it's purely because I lost a coin flip and am in no way honked at the TDs. It's the TD's tourney, and they announced the fairness method prior. That said, it bites I'll not be able to compete. )

[jcrab66]

wow, i got in!, on another note I look forward to flying back out and visiting my favorite part of the country, I was going to come out the week before and try and play the tourney layout sometime early in the week before the fling, now i guess i get to play it during the fling. Big year for me with some quality tourneys on the horizon....really looking forward to this one!

[Matt B.]

Originally Posted by Amber

i think we should make the ams play three days also. One round a day we could accomidate more players without to much hassle. AMS on one side pro's on the other. just a suggestion..

We?

[Matt B.]

Originally Posted by Jester

Feeling your pain..... can't stop crying. Want to meet at Whistlers the 16th of June to commiserate?

The MPM division was open for several days Mr. 960+ rating. Didn't you almost win this thing in MM1 last year?

[SMOKIN JOE]

Bummer. Again. O'fer on the lottery system. Since it's a lottery system, I suggest every year you don't get in you get an extra ball.
Numbers would suggest, most amount of players = two events.
Been fortunate to play in a few of them. Thanks given for that.
Feel real sorry for anyone that hasn't.

[LegoRules]

Originally Posted by SMOKIN JOE

Bummer. Again. O'fer on the lottery system. Since it's a lottery system, I suggest every year you don't get in you get an extra ball.
Numbers would suggest, most amount of players = two events.
Been fortunate to play in a few of them. Thanks given for that.
Feel real sorry for anyone that hasn't.

Um Terry the first list on this thread is for the people who DID get in, and you ARE on that list.

Div Name
MM1 David Babuka
MM1 Steve Carson
MM1 John Cloutier
MM1 John Crabtree
MM1 Jeff Elliot
MM1 Birk Ellis
MM1 Steve Erle
MM1 Andy Foster
MM1 Steve Ganz
MM1 Chris Graham
MM1 Lance Hankins
MM1 Randy Ivie
MM1 Jared James
MM1 John Kimbler
MM1 Ron Klein
MM1 Wing Ko
MM1 Rufus Manley
MM1 Ryan Mickelson
MM1 Craig Nielsen
MM1 Elec Pryor
MM1 Jeffrey Roberts
MM1 Terry Shuler
MM1 Daniel Sieverin
MM1 Gawain Stern
MM1 Michael Trask
MM1 Russell Tritico
MM1 Kevin Willis
MM1 Garin Wootton

Cindy

[Tanya Spence]

Originally Posted by LegoRules

Um Terry the first list on this thread is for the people who DID get in, and you ARE on that list.

Div Name
MM1 David Babuka
MM1 Steve Carson
MM1 John Cloutier
MM1 John Crabtree
MM1 Jeff Elliot
MM1 Birk Ellis
MM1 Steve Erle
MM1 Andy Foster
MM1 Steve Ganz
MM1 Chris Graham
MM1 Lance Hankins
MM1 Randy Ivie
MM1 Jared James
MM1 John Kimbler
MM1 Ron Klein
MM1 Wing Ko
MM1 Rufus Manley
MM1 Ryan Mickelson
MM1 Craig Nielsen
MM1 Elec Pryor
MM1 Jeffrey Roberts
MM1 Terry Shuler
MM1 Daniel Sieverin
MM1 Gawain Stern
MM1 Michael Trask
MM1 Russell Tritico
MM1 Kevin Willis
MM1 Garin Wootton

Cindy

Oh my gosh that's hilarious!!!

Terry needs to thank you like a million times

[Reichard]

Originally Posted by Matt B.

We?

Yeah, WEEE!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onHUf3CnOzc

[SMOKIN JOE]

Originally Posted by Tanya Spence

Oh my gosh that's hilarious!!!

Terry needs to thank you like a million times

Since I hadn't recieved an e-mail I didn't bother to look.
Just thought the Idea of an extra ball was funny.
Still sorry for those who have yet and are not playing.

[Flash]

The event can be lengthened with significantly more volunteers, Entry fees and cooperation from Sponsors and State parks. The cost to rent the park for 1 more day to make this a 4 day event is not a small amount it is quite a bit. Also making the event longer caters to those who are out of work or have flexible work or vacation schedules. The memorial used a 4 day three day schedule and the organizers and sponsors of the Beaver State Fling have not been willing to go this route. More people do not make an event better, the best players in the US do not make an event better. The dedication, attention to detail and willingness of the staff to push an event each year makes an event better.

There is no solution that will make all happy. If you want it to change get involved then your words mean more.

[buckyvania]

Originally Posted by Bullseye

Yup. And it breaks my heart to see so many awesome people on it. This is the absolute worst part of the BSF for me. I'd take a work party any day.

We've been playing almost 20 years..is this why we are bringing up the rear on the Grandmasters wait list? Please remove Rick Buttle and Paul Larsom from the waiting list. Thank you.

[Bruce]

My only suggestion/idea for the Am side is this, and I will related it to something I do have experience with. So as far as purchasing hunting tags, take elk for instance, in certain areas you pay to have your name drawn, aka a lottery. For every year you put in for that unit, and your name is not drawn, you build credit. After what is it, 4 years (depending on the area) you are capped out, and will get the tag for that unit. Perhaps, and this is just an idea, for those ams that do put in for the lottery year after year, and do not get in, perhaps something like this could work for them.

Just a thought, and really nobody will ever be happy, but it might make some people happier!

[Sausage Fingers]

Originally Posted by Bullseye

We feel like we have gone above and beyond the call of duty for the ladies on this event, including take an entire extra card from MM1.
I hope you all understand.

Jeff H

Even though this decision directly effects my ability to play in this tourney (#4 on MM1 waitlist) I applaud the choice to allow as many women in as possible.

Now I'm off to cry in my milk and cookies