2011 Farragut Open - Oct. 8th - 9th

[TreeLove]

Originally Posted by Yoduh

Stretch before.. Think of a baseball player that throws for 15 minutes before they throw hard once. I usually hold a disc with the hammer grip and pretend to throw 20 plus times before I throw a thumber. Think 10% 15% 20% on each practice non throw. Stretch good right after you hit 70-80%, I usually stay in that range for 5-10 throws. Hurt your roatator cuff and your out a month minimum, last time I did mine it was 7 weeks of lefty golf.

Last time I threw a too-big thumber without being fully stretched out, it was SIX MONTHS of lefty golf, and a painful recovery from the shoulder tendonitis. And to this day I have lost about 75 feet off my overhands. Take heed.

[ScottW]

Yes, go throw many thumbers! Then go see Dr. McDonald at NWOS and tell him that I sent you and thanks for sponsoring the tournament

[General Scales]

Originally Posted by ScottW

Yes, go throw many thumbers! Then go see Dr. McDonald at NWOS and tell him that I sent you and thanks for sponsoring the tournament

Yeah, that sounds like the best plan. You know, by time the tournament rolls around, he will of had 70 plus plugs for him on this forum alone

[ScottW]

Originally Posted by Yoduh

What disc do you throw for thumbers? How good are you at putting? Christian and I have been playing a combined 20 plus years here. I've played 275 courses in 26 states so its not like we are trying to make this up. Been to the World championships 5 times and played 15 plus tournaments for the last 10 years.

Ahhhh...the disc golf resume, very nice! Let's see, I'll answer in order 1)Whatever disc is appropriate for the given situation, thumber D may max out for me at 300 but I would say a more realistic average would be 250-275 2)Not very good because I don't practice very often 3) not an answer to a question but regardless - combined the 3 of us have 28+ years of playing experience. I stopped keeping track of courses played a long time ago because frankly I have better things to keep track of, but I can say not as many as you. Played zero World Championships and tourneys have been on the decline over the past few years. Also my desire to run tourney has been declining due to lack of player appreciation - all moot points, I'm just saying.

I still think there is very good conversation here and though I stated earlier that I think all 3 courses should be played there have been some very good points made to the contrary and am starting to be swayed to the other side of the fence. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out, perhaps Jack will just decide to play all 3 rounds on NorthStar Hate to see what would happen then

[Yoduh]

Those thumber questions were really for Kris C cause he said he throws all thumbers and I thought I might be able to pint him towards a better disc to throw his shoulder out with.. If your gonna go out, go with a bang! The resume is basically posted because alot of people that never get to leave their home courses and see what goes on in the world of big time disc golf could not understand why somebody would not want to play a particular course. They like them all and don't see how the percentages play out. They just know that they are fun. I still play North Star about every third time I go out because it is fun. It's just not a legit tourney course.

[Yoduh]

Scott, I've said before and I'll say it again, YOU ARE APPRECIATED!!

[Kris C]

Normally I throw a boss for all overhands, and not all my tee-shots on NS are overhands. Holes 2, 11, 13, 14, 17, and 18. I'm a RHFH so most of my overhands aren't thumbers. As for throwing a 400ft thumber, I don't think that's an issue because there is only 1 (I think) hole over 400, #8. And that fairway is open enough to throw whatever you like.
As for my "resume", I've been playing steadily for 2 yrs, (I played for a few years about 12 years ago) and I've been to around 12 courses, and yes, I liked them all. Except Bluegrass.

[Stimpi]

I suppose the Open players hate letting a one-shot guy get an advantage on a course, but that's why we play different courses. Northstar may be a pitch and putt for some people, but I've seen events lost due to poor scores on that course. I've played a bunch of courses all over the country, and some are definitely better and more challenging than others, but I love the variety as much, or more, than just playing for the challenge or the win.
If you want lessons on how to cater to Open Players, talk to Timmy Gill in Minnesota. That's pretty much all he wants at his events, and isn't afraid to tell you so, but this is North Idaho, and the Amateur and Age-Protected Divisions usually outnumber the Open Division, and typically the events in this area are aimed at getting as many players as possible to have a great time, whether they are Juniors or Seasoned Pros.
This isn't the USDGC, where every hole needs to be as challenging as possible. It's a local B tier. Let's have some fun!

[Yoduh]

Kris C, You will get more "D" out of a 150 flick or a firebird. Probably 20-40 feet. Hole 5 is an excellent overhand but you have to be able to throw 340 to get it.
Stimp, nobody said the juniors and the age protected guys wouldn't play all 3. We have been talking about the A pool with Open and advanced players only. Not saying the tournament is all about a win, saying that it should attempt to accurately measure a golfer. I've had some bad scores on North Star (-3ish) and usually its because I've gotten several bad kicks and/or been left 20 feet from the pin without a prayer.

[Yoduh]

Kris, hole 10 is another 325 foot hole where a thumber is super handy on a very tough birdie, unless you have a big thumb. Thats 9 overhands that are pretty easy, being somebody with a big thumber.
You may see golfers not shoot that well on that course that are ordinarily good golfers but does that mean that the course became fair and challenging all of the sudden? You will not see a thumber guy shoot bad on that course. Not in the Open division.

[Yoduh]

If a course had 9 righty hyzers would it be considered a fair test of a golfer?

[Kris C]

@ Yodah. I appreciate the advice, I actually have a 150 Flick that I use for tailwind drives, but I don't ever throw a thumber or tommy for distance, only to get a great lie. Hole 11 is a perfect example. Instead of trying to thread through the trees or a high forehand shot that will probably skip away, I throw a thumber that lands right next to the basket. I've never tried an overhand on 5 or 10. 5 is an easy (for me anyways) forehand shot down the left side of the fairway that fades back to the bottom of the hill just to the right of the single tree in front of the basket. Hole 10 I usually forehand my buzzz right at the basket

The current debate is irrelevant to me as I will be playing INT., but IMHO, I think even for the A pool, the NS is a great test of ones upshot abilities. Being able to judge when you might get a bad kick and allowing for it, or working on landing somewhere that isn't blocked by trees.

And a course with 9 righty hyzers would be fair if it had 9 lefty hyzers as well.

[jshrack]

Originally Posted by Yoduh

Oh I C. I wouldn't practice.. It's not like you have to practice thumbers.. I don't, I just know how to cause I can throwem. They are unbulleivably simple

This is like telling a basketball player that running layup drills isn't worth the practice time...

Hell, they are incredibly easy (if you have been playing for years) and not everyone will need them since there are plenty of other shot options... but having the confidence to hit one from an uncomfortable position, when the win is on the line, that doesn't come from skipping the shot during practice.

[ScottW]

Originally Posted by Yoduh

The resume is basically posted because alot of people that never get to leave their home courses and see what goes on in the world of big time disc golf could not understand why somebody would not want to play a particular course. They like them all and don't see how the percentages play out. They just know that they are fun. I still play North Star about every third time I go out because it is fun. It's just not a legit tourney course.

That might be one of the best points anybody has made so far and I completely agree. Hmmmm....decisions decision!

[Yoduh]

Originally Posted by jshrack

This is like telling a basketball player that running layup drills isn't worth the practice time...

Hell, they are incredibly easy (if you have been playing for years) and not everyone will need them since there are plenty of other shot options... but having the confidence to hit one from an uncomfortable position, when the win is on the line, that doesn't come from skipping the shot during practice.

Pressure is what people feel when they focus on whats around them. Develop a good pre shot routine and realize that you can only do your best on every shot. I have won 6 pdga playoffs lost 1. The longest was 9 holes that I roped i 460 drive at Steilly through the grove and hit a 30 footer to seal it. If I could pick my highest % to go against somebody in a playoff it would be a thumber. I can hit a mail slot from one knee at 100 feet. THEY ARE SO EASY! Unless you don' have a rotator cuff

[jshrack]

Well... we took an adventure out to Farragut today.
We played Northstar then followed it up with DBD/AWOL.

Northstar has some funky holes but was a TON of fun to play.
Lots of lines and multiple routes on many holes...
so many different shots off the tee played it was fun to just watch what would come out next.
We had 2 righties and 2 lefties, I would have to say the righties had the advantage on this course.

Then we switched over to DBD/AWOL and our mood as a group kinda changed.
You step up to a teepad and everyone is gonna shoot basically the same route on every hole.
I felt like I forced a bunch of my tee shots simply because there were far fewer choices for shot selection... and it wasn't an enjoyable process.
I played pretty well on both courses, 53 on NS and 66 on DBD... I had a blast on NS and yet felt like I was playing a game full of long forced shots on DBD.
And with all that length there are so few possibilities for rollers, it made me sad.

Anyway, I am not a PRO nor am I likely to be in town for Farragut this year... so my two cents are worth even less.
Just to add to the controversy though; I think 2 rounds of DBD would be remarkably draining for a tourney, while a single round of each course would encompass an enjoyable and long weekend of golf.

[Yoduh]

Rollers? Where in the Inland Northwest can you throw rollers? I can think of a handful of holes and only one in the whole spokane area. Fourmounds has a ton of bomber super long holes, never thought once that I wish I could throw a roller.. although it would be nice Gordo if your listening

The difference you described is the difference between a real challenge (Seatac) and a putt putt thumber topia. One course is serious and the other isn't. I feel like DBD single black diamond is a course that takes it's foot off of your head after you finish hole 18. That being said it is fair and it DOES not reward distance, it does reward accuracy. Take Yoduhs Yawn for instance. I've seen a large number of golfers take out their driver for this 600 foot hole and throw something that hits the middle trees or hyzers out. They get beat to snot trying to get up the left side of the fairway.. The Shot.. I throw a Roc or a putter from the tee that will fly like a left hander threw it and get to the landing area.. Find your next route (there are several) throw a beat firebird or a newish teebird into the base of the hill, hit my putt and move on.. Occasionally I will land short but still be in the middle. When this happens there is a huge righty hyzer way over the tops of the trees, that is my savior for a not quite quality drive but it's a little scary. This course was specifically built so that if a golfer could throw 330 feet, they could compete with ANYONE!
I throw a leopard on hole 1 off the tee to the landing area on the right and short. Throw a good up and get my 3 on this par 4. I've seen Ed Doppelmeyer park that hole for a 2, and I've seen him try and park it and take a 5.The course is supposed to teach you how to use control drivers and shot selection. We have such a large assortment of grip it and rip it holes in this area where even a bad drive leads to a very manageable 3. The course will repeatedly beat you down unless you learn how to control your emotions and your discs.. I guarantee you that if you played that course as often as you played your regular course you would get better faster. It makes you get so comfortable hitting lines that when you go back to your regular course the tight fairway are wide open. If you like to throw teebirds, eagles and leopards and Rocs than you will do well on this course as long as you identify where the landing areas are and you execute. Also when you find your self in trouble it is not time to be a hero very often.. Take your medicine and get back to the fairway. Like real golf. That being said I've thrown and seen some amazing upshots to get out of trouble on this course. My best score is a 54 in tourney and 53 in casual, the course record is 53 by Christian Dietrich. I know I could shoot a 48 on that course. With the SSA being over 57 a 48 would be a killer rating!
This course will get harder.. Can't wait to finish that and to get into the next one

[jshrack]

Originally Posted by Yoduh

Rollers? Where in the Inland Northwest can you throw rollers? I can think of a handful of holes and only one in the whole spokane area. Fourmounds has a ton of bomber super long holes, never thought once that I wish I could throw a roller.. although it would be nice Gordo if your listening

The difference you described is the difference between a real challenge (Seatac) and a putt putt thumber topia. One course is serious and the other isn't. I feel like DBD single black diamond is a course that takes it's foot off of your head after you finish hole 18. That being said it is fair and it DOES not reward distance, it does reward accuracy. Take Yoduhs Yawn for instance. I've seen a large number of golfers take out their driver for this 600 foot hole and throw something that hits the middle trees or hyzers out. They get beat to snot trying to get up the left side of the fairway.. The Shot.. I throw a Roc or a putter from the tee that will fly like a left hander threw it and get to the landing area.. Find your next route (there are several) throw a beat firebird or a newish teebird into the base of the hill, hit my putt and move on.. Occasionally I will land short but still be in the middle. When this happens there is a huge righty hyzer way over the tops of the trees, that is my savior for a not quite quality drive but it's a little scary. This course was specifically built so that if a golfer could throw 330 feet, they could compete with ANYONE!
I throw a leopard on hole 1 off the tee to the landing area on the right and short. Throw a good up and get my 3 on this par 4. I've seen Ed Doppelmeyer park that hole for a 2, and I've seen him try and park it and take a 5.The course is supposed to teach you how to use control drivers and shot selection. We have such a large assortment of grip it and rip it holes in this area where even a bad drive leads to a very manageable 3. The course will repeatedly beat you down unless you learn how to control your emotions and your discs.. I guarantee you that if you played that course as often as you played your regular course you would get better faster. It makes you get so comfortable hitting lines that when you go back to your regular course the tight fairway are wide open. If you like to throw teebirds, eagles and leopards and Rocs than you will do well on this course as long as you identify where the landing areas are and you execute. Also when you find your self in trouble it is not time to be a hero very often.. Take your medicine and get back to the fairway. Like real golf. That being said I've thrown and seen some amazing upshots to get out of trouble on this course. My best score is a 54 in tourney and 53 in casual, the course record is 53 by Christian Dietrich. I know I could shoot a 48 on that course. With the SSA being over 57 a 48 would be a killer rating!
This course will get harder.. Can't wait to finish that and to get into the next one

Too many holes where "the shot" is the shot you take... with no other shot available. You force people to play the line you enjoy without giving many real options. I sat on at leaset 5 different tees and regretted having to take a particular shot, not because it was the best option...because it was the ONLY option.
Righties and Lefties should rarely be forced on the same line for a long hole... DBD does it CONSISTENTLY.

DBD is designed to keep big arms at a handicap and to destroy non-locals... sounds about right if YOU want a great tourney rating... not the case for a ton of other amazing golfers. Seatac incorporates both accuracy and distance into different parts of the course, with a par 3 system Seatac can seem overwhelming but it never had me straining for a comfortable shot off the tee.

DBD does NOT stack up... hell, if you want a course where you need to hit lines take a page from PIER.
It has trees, it has lines, you can pick your line and if you miss it you might be screwed... not by the huge limbs strewn all over the place, not by the dead snags all round the greens, not because the fairway is overgrown, but because you missed the shot you CHOSE to take.

As for rollers, just because they aren't prevalent around our area doesn't mean a top level course shouldn't have the option in a few places... Roller opportunities are an aspect of disc golf where our local community is sorely deprived.

[Yoduh]

That is your opinion and its fine. There are holes that require you to take one route. Many golf holes do this. Don't know if you've been on the east coast before? The west side of the state does a similar thing on quite a few holes. The idea is to learn how to conrtol the whole entire flight path of your disc.. not just hit a gap at 80 feet and than not worry about it. This sort of Control (wizardry) is what truly seperates a golfer. A non local that is a top level pro could easily identify the landing areas of the course and decide which is best for them to play to. I have brought two Innova Sponsored players to play that course and both gave rave reviews. One of them called it the 2nd best course in the entire Northwest next to Milo. The one thing that I can say about the course is that It was designed to play a little tight. Meaning that in 2 to 3 years as the trees grow it will play a little more how it was intended. There are other fairways where more distance will come into play also. Hole 6 and 7 and hole 12 will see major changes adding 100 to 300 feet to each.

[Yoduh]

Holes with options off the tee. 1,3, 4,5 6,9,10,14,15,16. # of holes where really good golf shots are required, 18