Ancillary Games and the conflict of interest they support - PDGA

LJ Jubner · #1 October 18th, 2010, 07:06 AM

The pDGA states Like an Ace pot Series payouts are not I repeat not required to follow the NATIONAL Am guidelines set forth.

That means Am's can take cash for series play.
If that the case why do we as Am allow series to hold us hostage to whatever whim they see fit. If they can make money off of you you can bet your ass they will is my best rational for them

If series payout/fees are like an Ace pot
What would happen if a player refused to allow said series deduction to be taken from his/her entry fee.

As a TD then would you have the balls to not allow someone to enter becasue they balked at the series fees being deducted.

I say all series payouts should be in cash.

I am also going to post this on the pDGA thread

Chuck Kennedy · #2 October 18th, 2010, 07:36 AM

If you're running the series, Am payouts can be cash if none of the events are PDGA sanctioned. But if the series TD wants Am payouts to be in merch to supplement event expenses, isn't that their prerogative?

LJ Jubner · #3 October 18th, 2010, 08:03 AM

I agree Chuck Hence the conflict of intrest

Chuck Kennedy · #4 October 18th, 2010, 08:33 AM

What's the conflict?

jshrack · #5 October 18th, 2010, 05:09 PM

I think you should allow people to add themselves into a series if they choose to do so. They should not be automatically added to the series. Nor should series fees be a requirement to participate in one event from a series.

The ACE POT, it is a side bet that the player may choose to be part of.
Shouldn't the player also have a choice to participate in the series side bet as well?

I completely understand why the PDGA has issue with cash payout for an AMATEUR series. It undermines the concept of amateur play.

It also makes me ponder this question: If a player can easily win more CASH in a lower division wouldn't it promote sandbagging?

papatart · #6 October 18th, 2010, 05:23 PM

Jub, do you seriously just continue to look for things to be upset about? I understand what you are saying about the possibility of the series fee being a voluntary thing. When I lived in Michigan, there were tournaments that would be part of the Can-Am series and the MDGO series at the same time. As a player you could enter as a single tourney or pay one or both series fees on top of it to have you score count as part of the series.

As for how it worked? fine, I guess, except that there was probably a smaller payout for the series finishers. This being said, I don't think I would have walked away from the event if the organizers said that 3 dollars of my entry was going to series payouts. I must say that I feel that if I was ever "held hostage" as you so eloquently put it, I would hope that someone would (a) ask for more than three bucks and (b) someone like my wife would want to pony up at least a twenty for my release.

Ransom? Dude, mellow out and let the people enjoy their tourneys even if they are helping to support (see, others helping out a series) something that they may not personally benefit from monetarily at the end.

Later,
Papa

LJ Jubner · #7 October 18th, 2010, 06:07 PM

Scott all valid points I am just looking for some clarification was all.

REDFIVE · #8 October 18th, 2010, 07:53 PM

What is the point of bringing this up? Now series coordinators and qualifiers are out to get us. I don't get it Jub. I know you are just looking for discussion but why try and turn amateur players against the series? The people, clubs, and companies that have sponsored and run tournaments that make up the series are the ones that profit from script payouts. The money raised from script is usually given back in one way or another or is making up for what has already been given. How is this a bad thing? Am I missing something?

Sam · #9 October 18th, 2010, 09:50 PM

Oh, Jub... I champion the "questioner" in your spirit. Yet, I am left only to wonder at the shadows you see as suspect.

olydiscgolf · #10 October 19th, 2010, 08:16 AM

The question that Jub was trying to ask is "does accepting cash from a series affect the amature status of a player"? Or does a "series" fall under the "ancillary games" defined by the PDGA?

LJ Jubner · #11 October 19th, 2010, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olydiscgolf

The question that Jub was trying to ask is "does accepting cash from a series affect the armature status of a player"? Or does a "series" fall under the "ancillary games" defined by the PDGA?

Man Chris
I should send things through you more often.

From Chucks answer

... "that if it's a group of sanctioned events, then it falls under the same guidelines required to sanction each of them."

olydiscgolf · #12 October 19th, 2010, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LJ Jubner

Man Chris
I should send things through you more often.

From Chucks answer

... "that if it's a group of sanctioned events, then it falls under the same guidelines required to sanction each of them."

Yes, Jub, you should! Its not about what you say, its often about how you say it!

jshrack · #13 October 19th, 2010, 05:38 PM

another question is...
What happens should an amateur accept cash in this way?
How about when NCAA rules are mixed into the equation?

It makes you wonder when kids like Wiggins might be throwing out a NCAA World Championships bid.

Sam · #14 October 19th, 2010, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olydiscgolf

Yes, Jub, you should! Its not about what you say, its often about how you say it!

We really need a "Like" button...

Oh... and Jub.... Carville not Carvell.

Uhlman · #15 October 20th, 2010, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jshrack

another question is...
What happens should an amateur accept cash in this way?
How about when NCAA rules are mixed into the equation?

It makes you wonder when kids like Wiggins might be throwing out a NCAA World Championships bid.

That is an interesting point. I would think if a series were not sanctioned by the PDGA or other governing body like the NCAA it would be akin to hitting an ace pot as an AM at a PDGA sanctioned tournament or accepting cash at a non-sanctioned tournament. But this is just me.

DoubleDees · #16 October 20th, 2010, 01:49 PM

I think we need more reasons for ams to move up... not less

Gordy #21004 · #17 October 21st, 2010, 12:13 AM

Our INWS is a series that offers both amateur and pro divisions. In our series the tourny directors agree to deduct $3 per player to go towards the Qualifiers purses. All fees collected from any division get allocated back to the same division. Over time all the events have attained sanctioned status, but through our entire history Am Finalists have received schwag and pros have received cash. To do otherwise is contrary to the Pro/Am format. Should we also give the Ams their player pak in cash? Really! Gordy.

Uhlman · #18 October 22nd, 2010, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordy #21004

Our INWS is a series that offers both amateur and pro divisions. In our series the tourny directors agree to deduct $3 per player to go towards the Qualifiers purses. All fees collected from any division get allocated back to the same division. Over time all the events have attained sanctioned status, but through our entire history Am Finalists have received schwag and pros have received cash. To do otherwise is contrary to the Pro/Am format. Should we also give the Ams their player pak in cash? Really! Gordy.

Would you give pros a players pack in cash? No, you would not. I don’t think anyone expects any players pack to contain cash. If you run your series as PROs get cash and AMs get stuff, then that’s how you run it. I feel that, as a director of a non-sanctioned ancillary contest (ace pot or series) you should be able to award everyone cash, if you choose, regardless of player status. The US dollar is "legal tender for all debts, public and private," and accepted in the US and other parts of the world. Scrip keeps the money local and is not a bad alternative to cash especially for the AMs. The thing with scrip is you need a place to spend it. Hopefully in each town where the series was held has a place to spend said scrip or to has an online store. Schwag (a.k.a. Stuff) is nice, but keep for the player's packs and CTPs. You could also run it trophy only (but in all reality who wants that).

jshrack · #19 October 22nd, 2010, 03:26 PM

While the US dollar is legal tender, accepting cash makes the participation commercial and defines you as professional in your field.

Back to the point though:
The series is not a side pot if you are forced to pay into it.
Nor should the series be considered ancillary if participation in said event mandates paying into that series.

Uhlman · #20 October 23rd, 2010, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jshrack

While the US dollar is legal tender, accepting cash makes the participation commercial and defines you as professional in your field.

Back to the point though:
The series is not a side pot if you are forced to pay into it.
Nor should the series be considered ancillary if participation in said event mandates paying into that series.

What I guess I am saying is scrip is a form of money but accepting it does not make one professional because "it's not really currency." If I win the lottery or hit a jack pot in a casino does that make me a professional gambler?
I really think it should be up to the series coordinator to determine how they payout the winnings.
I agree with you, if I am not playing in said series why should I have to support it?