Basket tagging is vandalism...

[The Ombudsman]

Originally Posted by jshrack

I would also like to note how awesome that pic is.
It has been there for 35 years and nobody has had issue with it.
We are still growing and we can find reasonable solutions to these problems.
I hope we never get as stuffy as our ball counterparts though.

I am trying very hard to refrain from calling you a MORON.

My point was that 35 years ago when I was a careless teenager I did these things. I have since given up this type of behavior.
How do you know that nobody has had an issue with it?

I would think that nobody has noticed it. Or they are too lazy to clean it up. Also, we did it in pencil, not with a sharpie.

[Ol' Bob]

...what will you do about it?

Tag-Be-Gone?

[snap7times]

Originally Posted by jshrack

Our club just had a meeting last month and decided this was NOT a priority to deal with on our courses. Currently, it is a waste of effort that could be put into much more productive work.

There are major changes which will make this sport better and more accessible to our communities. Putting in the time and effort to make these changes on the course shows that you are willing to invest in the sport.

Bitching about how other people are ruining your fun by putting their initials on a basket is petty. 'Be the change you want to see in the world.' I personally think that abundant litter, and public drunkenness will taint our sport more than a couple initials on the pin... You don't see me starting a thread to bitch. Pick your battles and help people find a better way.

We are gonna disagree on this topic,that is part of life.
The question is: what will you do about it?

Funny thing is you sound just like a guy I know, and I am always proving him to think different, the right way... waste of effort? how hard is it to spread the word "do not tag baskets, tag your discs", hmm took me about 3 seconds to say it and 5 to type it?
I am not bishing cuz someone is ruining my fun, i'm bishing cuz I put the dang course in and just put the orange stickers on less than 2 weeks ago and someone already is writing on these brand new orange stickers that I had to work my butt off to fund raise to pay for!!! Once we let it happen, it will spiral out of control with all kinds of bs tags...
I put out 3 new garbage cans on the course today, 2 for trash and 1 for recycles on holes 8 and 15... I know I am a small minority of people who actually pick up trash as I play, but by setting an example and encouraging others to do the same, the trend will continue to spread, same as telling people about what to sign.
There are no "battles", just do everything as right as can be and spread the word on what is right and wrong and problems go down ALOT, instead of not telling them and letting the problem continue. As for aces, once we get our kiosk up, we will definitely have a place on there for Aces...

[Nichola]

Those who tagged the baskets at Camp Taloali are not good example to the kids!

[Joshua Olmsted]

Originally Posted by E Smith

I’ve seen this thread before but the ignorance
displayed on this one is amazing. Jshrack, you said your club had a meeting and decided to take no action. That’s easy, not tagging is the easiest thing to do. Have you tried the most simple solution of asking your club members to stop tagging? It would take as long as it took you to read this.

I like how when an opinion falls in the majority within a "forum" it's seen as right and anyone else who holds another view is call "ignorant" or other less than pleasant names, what if at this club meeting the majority of club members really don't mind seeing ace tags on basket poles? Perhaps that course has serious graffitti problems that have nothing to do with aces on baskets (it's not like their approving gang tags on the course). Who are you to say that the opinion of that group MUST be wrong. Again, he worded it as it was simply not a high priority for their group, not that they were advising their members to go out and tag their aces. At a lot of courses, there are simply bigger fish to fry when it comes to course management and improvement.

Again I am not condoning basket tagging, I just like discussion spaces where people aren't put down as individuals for their views.

[sillybizz]

Originally Posted by Joshua Olmsted

I just like discussion spaces where people aren't put down as individuals for their views.

This isn't an Innova vs. Discraft or Roc vs. Buzzz discussion! This person is saying it's alright to destroy other people's property! So if I came on here and said it's alright to litter or break tee signs on the disc golf course you would defend me because you don't want my view as an individual to be frowned upon? That is ridiculous and you should know that! IT'S THE SAME THING!!!! How do you not understand that it COSTS TIME AND MONEY to undue the damage from people who have to put their 'accomplishment' on the baskets?!?!?!

[Ol' Bob]

I hate to see legality brought into it. Too many laws are about the powerful having the right to bully the weak. We should find our motivations outside and before the laws, not in a fear of getting busted. This particular practice of tagging comes down to respect, and respect is what is being asked for. Over four decades ago, I traveled the Far East on my Uncle Sam's submarine. I swear, at nearly every place I went, no matter how sacred the site, someone had been there before me and carved, "TEXAS" into the woodwork. Makes you proud, don't it?

[Joshua Olmsted]

<chuckle>

Neither of you are getting the point of my argument, or jshrack's for that matter. The first point Silly, is that putting your initials down and breaking a tee sign are not the same thing, and on a lot of courses there are merely bigger issues to deal with. In no way did I say that I approve or wish to encourage basket tagging, I'm simply pointing out that I'm not "wrong" for having a different reaction to the issue than you do. I'm saying that people within a discussion space shouldn't be vilified if they don't come to the exact same conclusion of everyone else. Would you say that the mere fact that when I see a person's initials on a basket this doesn't really upset me makes me a bad person? I'm not saying that you shouldn't have that reaction, I'm simply saying that you shouldn't expect everyone to have the same reaction or come to the same conclusions. I find it interesting that the mere fact that jshrack's group doesn't see a large priority in removing/fighting against basket tagging causes some people to immediately assume they're a bad group, or a "little gang" as you put it E. Who knows? maybe they do other good work at whatever their home course is, perhaps picking up litter, all he stated was what they felt was NOT a big priority. Why reach assumptions that don't necessarily need to be reached.

[sillybizz]

Originally Posted by jshrack

I find that the tags provide personality to the hole.

What I heard was: "I condone vandalism"

[sillybizz]

Originally Posted by sillybizz

Don't ever let me catch you signing a basket is all I can say. You WILL get an ear full.

Like I said.

[Ol' Bob]

As der Vice Coursenführer here, tagging is verbotten. If you want to modify this course in any way, you must go through the proper channels. That makes it pretty easy. I have me a can of Tag-Be-Gone, but so far, I've only used it for rust. No one has ever tagged any basket here. I guess most folks see it would be like going into someone's home and carving their mark into the mantle piece. This is my house. Public parks are everyone's house. Nobody has their own private room (basket) in that house.

I notice that no one signs their name to bathroom graffiti. Gang tagging is supposed to be about turf and respect. It ain't really about respect. Respect is something that must be earned. What that tagging is about is obeisance/deference. It comes down to the same old 'look at me' thang. Is it a continuum from "I got an ace here," to, "bow and worship me?" Could be. A celebration is fine. But you wouldn't want to do it at someone else's expense or discomfort (unless that's just they way you're wired). But maybe we just don't know who we're dealing with here. The motivation to not do it should rest in reflection and understanding the motivations. Consideration of self should generate consideration for others.

[jshrack]

The reason our club chose not to do anything about the tagging was partly due to this new development.

This is also vandalism. It was done in the middle of the night and our club appreciates the work somebody did to cover an ugly wall.

We decided that graffiti is graffiti... Our club really likes this 'vandalism' on our course and how it has added personality. We figured if we started covering basket graffiti it would necessitate coving this beautiful graffiti. Some people like it, others don't.

Some people like disc golf, some people think it ruins a perfectly good natural setting. This destruction of a natural park setting could easily be construed as vandalism as well. Please take into account that different people have different opinions and have the right to voice them without being ostracized.

Pick your battles... and how to fight them.
You have created a rift where there could be a reasonable solution.
I have suggested possible solutions for discussion.
You have stated that yours is the ONLY solution, I must agree or be attacked.
Which one sounds like the community you want to be part of?

[E Smith]

i like the "new development", very cool.

[jshrack]

Thank you Josh, for understanding that I am acting as devils advocate here.
I really get sick of the majority thinking that their way is the ONLY way.
We all have the right to voice an opinion without being personally attacked.

I will try to re-state what Bob said with some historical context:
Speak softly and carry a big can of rust-oleum.

[Ol' Bob]

There is definitely going to be an eye-of-the-beholder thing there with the wall.

[Kris C]

Originally Posted by Ol' Bob

There is definitely going to be an eye-of-the-beholder thing there with the wall.

The same thing can be said of aces tagged on a basket. Personally, I don't like the wall, but it looks better than some gang sign.

[Sean Johnson]

Originally Posted by jshrack

The reason our club chose not to do anything about the tagging was partly due to this new development.

This is also vandalism. It was done in the middle of the night and our club appreciates the work somebody did to cover an ugly wall.

We decided that graffiti is graffiti... Our club really likes this 'vandalism' on our course and how it has added personality. We figured if we started covering basket graffiti it would necessitate coving this beautiful graffiti. Some people like it, others don't.

Some people like disc golf, some people think it ruins a perfectly good natural setting. This destruction of a natural park setting could easily be construed as vandalism as well. Please take into account that different people have different opinions and have the right to voice them without being ostracized.

Pick your battles... and how to fight them.
You have created a rift where there could be a reasonable solution.
I have suggested possible solutions for discussion.
You have stated that yours is the ONLY solution, I must agree or be attacked.
Which one sounds like the community you want to be part of?

While I'm not disagreeing with your interpretation of that meeting, I took things a little differently. The main topic was that people went out and spray painted some of our baskets (chains included) horrid colors, apparently in an attempt to help visibility. The message that I got from some members was that they just didn't care enough to go out and fix them. The logic was that people are going to continue to vandalize, so we might as well not put in the effort. Not everyone shared that mentality, and some people wanted to leave them because they legitimately thought that the course would be better served with the increased visibility. I personally was stunned that anyone would be cool with someone spray painting the top half of a basket safety orange for any reason.

While I'm not as passionate as some about the topic of signing baskets, I would never sign a basket for any reason. There is no question that it is vandalism, it just has some mitigating factors that make it a little better than run of the mill graffiti. And seriously people- there is no need to get heated or insult people to make your point. It simply degrades and distracts from the topic at hand. On the topic of the wall- I really like it and think that it's an improvement, but I don't like the idea of people doing whatever they want to the course when no one is looking.

[The Ombudsman]

The wall is an eyesore. Nicer than before? Maybe.
Should the graffiti remain? Absolutely not.
The line needs to be drawn right here.

The opportunity here is to remove the grafitti and get a local artist to do a mural that has been pre approved by your club. This will make your club stronger in the long run. You are only being lazy if you leave it there. What the taggers have done is show you that the wall can look better than it did. It can still look even better than it does now. Leaving it there gives tacit approval to continue this type of vandalism.

[jshrack]

I figured the tagging and spray painting were lumped together when they were voted on as the same issue. The club voted to leave the baskets as is and add a number tag to increase visibility. The back of that number place could be a great place for an ace list? Heck, each tee sign could have an ACE LIST built into it.

I do agree that the tagging should be curtailed.
I think there are a lot of constructive ways to mitigate the process.
I don't agree with the methods that are being used.

[snap7times]

Alright, first of all, I am not understanding why a club can't address all the issues that come up instead of having to choose between them? Delegate the responsibilities to whoever wants or is willing to do this and that. Now if the club's majority thinks signing baskets with aces is a cool thing to do, make sure they know its not accepted at 90-95 percent of the courses out there if not more, and only a few are ok with it; that would seem like the right thing to do, which is what we are discussing, to make sure that we know it is not accepted at most courses and to simply tell others that fact.
But at the same time, the reason for the strong approach of some, is that the issue of tagging, writing or whatever on baskets is illegal, regardless of views of the course caretakers, but doubt the police will ever get involved *hope not*.
I'm curious, how many of the people on here that are hard-pressed against signing baskets are people that helped put baskets into the ground somewhere versus the people who helped put baskets into the ground and think that signing baskets is not frowned upon but probably wouldn't do it themselves? Hope I worded that right... Like I put a whole course in and helped a couple others as well and I have strong opinions on basket tagging and littering; just curious if the opinion is mixed among disc golfers or it's more common in those who work on courses versus those who just play?
While I think that wall art job looks tasteful, sadly illegal, I am not seeing how this relates to the course basket discussion, but that's just me.

As for some people spray painting the baskets, I'm surprised, was the orange stickers not enough? they are included when you get the baskets and easily purchased through DGA or at the local hardware store, DGA provides the clear stickers to go over the orange stickers to make sure the orange stickers last a long time. There will always be at least that one person that has the heart who cares and will do the job, and effort is effort, no one knows what will happen until the work is done. But if it's liked, then i guess no effort is needed.