Vinyl problem

[tazzmann]

Hey dye gods, I have a question. I ordered some of the free sample vinyl from 3M that was suggested on another forum, so I am not using cheap stuff. Anyway, My first dye job went ok, but I had a few problems related to me and not the vinyl.

After that, the next TWO dye jobs I had a problem with the vinyl leaving the glue behind. I tried different ways of pulling the vinyl off and made sure the heat in the pan for the dye was not too hot. Has any of you had this problem? If so, how did you fix it?

Thanks!

Mike

[Ol' Bob]

I'd searched for a long time to find the right stuff to get gum off stuff when removing labels. I don't know what gum they use on the vinyl, but I was recently tipped off as to what works for most label gum: naptha. If you don't need big bunches of the stuff, just get a can of Ronsonol lighter fluid.

[tazzmann]

I used Acetone, but I noticed that is some places it made the dye see through. If I get a chance, I will take some pics and post. I was under the impression (maybe a wrong one) that the sign vinyl would be easier to use with less problems. So far, that hasn't been the case. I will try the naptha, I have a bottle of it from when I was doing slot cars. I sure hope I can find a solution. It also makes it REAL hard to get the vinyl off after the dye (the glue sticking and not the acetone).

Thanks Bob!

Mike

[Ol' Bob]

Being an OCD recycler, I tried everything to make my jars and bottles nice and clean to recycle at the Astoria Coop where I shop. I'd tried acetone, paint thinner, butter, everything. The Ronsonol works. I bought a Fender 12 string (with only 6 strings) at a thrift store and took it across the street to the local luthier to get it properly strung. There was gum from the price tag on the pick guard. He just grabbed up his Ronsonol can and gave it a squirt and wiped the goo away. Years of questing finally over.

[TYVEK]

howdy,

i have found that when you use lower quality vinyl you get more of the "glue" left on the disc when you peel the vinyl off. i used to have that problem when i ordered vinyl off of ebay, but i found that if i let the vinyl sit on the disc for awhile so that it was back to room temp the vinyl left less residue.

i have been using the Oracal 651 intermediate grade vinyl and have had WAY WAY less residue. i mean only a few little spots here and there and it cleans up alot easier than the other vinyl i was using. i use goo gone to take the glue residue off with, it works good and it doesnt mess with the dye. Accetone will make your dye bleed and smear if you use it to take the glue residue off.

hope this helps.

[TREX]

WD40 and elbow grease removes the glue. The problem I had was getting the glue off in between colors while the vinyl was still on the disc. The solution. Place the disc in the freezer before removing the vinyl. The heat of the dye causes the glue to become tacky and leaves behind the residue. Putting it in the freezer hardens it back up and keeps it where it belongs.. on the vinyl. Since using the freezer method I don't have to even clean the discs after I'm done. GL

[tazzmann]

@TYVEK - I am using some good sign vinyl which is approximately equivalent of the Oracal 651 stuff.

I may be trying to take it off too soon after dying. I will try the freezer method or letting it cool back to room temp first. I DO know that on one disc, it was sticking BEFORE the dying when trying to take the pieces of vinyl off where I wanted the dye to go onto the disc, but it WAS a warm day, so that might have been the issue.

Thanks for the responses everyone!

Mike

[Trozzle!!!]

TYVEK is correct, Oracal 651 ( not some equivalent vinyl) and a little goo gone or goof off. be careful on star plastic though. goof off can smear the the dye.

[tazzmann]

@trozzle - So I guess 3M professional sign vinyl is NOT good vinyl? I am confused.

This vinyl is professional quality sign vinyl and was recommended by dyers on the disc golf course review forum, but everyone here seems to be saying that I should quit using cheap vinyl. This stuff is NOT cheap vinyl. Am I missing something?

[sodrifter]

there is a company out of Merlin OR. that sells a product called Rapid Remover. it works much better than Goo Gone. jut head to the kitchen sink with a squeegee and hose it down with the Rapid Remover. Then squeegee off the glue. if the color starts to bleed just rinse it off and reapply the Rapid Remover. then repeat until glue is completely gone. usually it works on the first try. the glue will come up best if ya peel the vinyl at slightly warmer than room temp. then if there is any left use the Rapid. you can also buy Rapid Remover from a company in Eugene OR. called Multi Craft Plastics.

Hope this helps

[Bullseye Disc Golf.com]

I have a lot of experience with this mess and unfortunately it is for many disc dyer's, the "deal breaker" when it comes to trying to do dye jobs in any kind of "production" fashion.

The best product I've ever seen is what sodrifter just mentioned called Rapid Remover. If this did not exist I probably wouldn't ever bother with trying to even dye discs at all. There are plenty of really good dyes on eBay for reasonable prices.

The amazing thing about Rapid Remover is that it's all natural and citrus based. I would never want to use some nasty chemical for hours on end, trying to clean gummed up discs. Regardless of the product, the extra step of having to clean off the goo is probably the biggest deal breaker for wanting to dye discs at all.

Although... in many cases the vinyl just magically peels off with no residue at all.

I think the longer you leave it on, the worse it gets. There's really no reason to leave it on overnight if you don't have to. The quicker you hit it with dye and the quicker you pull it off, the less problems you are going to have. Keeping it out of direct sun and at a reasonable cool temperature will improve the process.

[ChUcK]

Originally Posted by tazzmann

@trozzle - So I guess 3M professional sign vinyl is NOT good vinyl? I am confused.

This vinyl is professional quality sign vinyl and was recommended by dyers on the disc golf course review forum, but everyone here seems to be saying that I should quit using cheap vinyl. This stuff is NOT cheap vinyl. Am I missing something?

3M makes vinyl of all grades and qualities, just like everybody else, and none of it is cheap.

Rapid Remover is what I use when necessary, and it has all the same drawbacks that Goo Gone does. Coming from Oregon does not make it better than other solvents. You Oregonians and your rose-colored glasses...

[Scott]

Not sure what I'm missing. I used Oracal and never had any need for any type of solvent for residue removal. Maybe it has to do with the temp of they dye or how long the disc was cooking. I always removed the dye under warm running water.

Now that I think about it, I did have some problems when I did some dyes during a camping trip. I didn't have access to warm running water so I used cold water instead. Perhaps the key is keeping the disc (and the vinyl) warm.

[ChUcK]

There are tons of variables that most dyers don't take into account when dispensing advice, myself included. The rules of the game are not the same from kitchen to kitchen. I doubt anybody knows what effects are to be had from ancillary factors like humidity, exact dye formula, rinse water softness, procedural inconsistencies, etc.

I think the best advice I can give is to continue experimenting until you find what works for you. If you're really meant to dye discs then you'll find a comfort zone of variables soon enough.

[Burge]

There are three things that will mess with everyone's masking-release experience: heat, acetone, type of plastic.

The problem with sign vinyl, is that almost all of it has acrylic-based adhesive that is susceptible to heat. Letting your disc return to room temp is always the best idea.

Acrylic adhesive is also susceptible to the ketone-group solvents like acetone, so, if you are using the acetone/water bath method, this could soften your adhesive and cause separation from the vinyl--no matter what temp.

Higher density plastics (Champ, Opto, Evo, SRP, Star, Goldline, Supreme) are going to give you a better release overall. More permeable plastics (DX, S, Pro, Pro-D, Power, "Soft") are going to give you the most problems, especially after acetone exposure.

The problem is that sign vinyl may be easy to acquire, comes in handy sheets, and is fairly cheap, it was never intended to be used as a masking. If you are wanting to dye discs on a regular basis and want pro results that work every time on every disc, the best remedy is to use a more high-performance tape that has a silicone-based adhesive. It's more spendy and you have to get it from industrial supply places like McMaster-Carr or Grainger, but it is truly superior in every way. Solvent and heat resistant, it makes a razor-sharp line and peels off cleanly and easily.

[Jeremy Frieling]

Originally Posted by tazzmann

Hey dye gods, I have a question. I ordered some of the free sample vinyl from 3M that was suggested on another forum, so I am not using cheap stuff. Anyway, My first dye job went ok, but I had a few problems related to me and not the vinyl.

After that, the next TWO dye jobs I had a problem with the vinyl leaving the glue behind. I tried different ways of pulling the vinyl off and made sure the heat in the pan for the dye was not too hot. Has any of you had this problem? If so, how did you fix it?

Thanks!

Mike

Thanks for the great question. I have had the same problem from time to time, and it was frustrating to say the least. Thanks for the all the expert advice. Going to look into the silicon based stuff.

[Burge]

The McMaster-Carr web catalog is massive. Here's a link to the page with the tape:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/116/3413/=8ysoc2

[ChUcK]

Do they sell anything over 6 inches wide? If not, it might not be very useful as a masking stencil for disc dyeing. Plus, that stuff is prohibitively expensive!

[Burge]

Originally Posted by ChUcK

Do they sell anything over 6 inches wide? If not, it might not be very useful as a masking stencil for disc dyeing. Plus, that stuff is prohibitively expensive!

Most tapes and films with silicone adhesive are going to be expensive, but I had used the 1/2" tape and just either laid down simple designs freehand using the tape edge and stretching in curves where needed, or building up a sheet with strips and then using an NT knife (WAY superior to x-acto: sharper, blades last longer) to cut out a design and then transfer it to the disc. The silicone adhesive is pressure activated and immensely forgiving. You can position and reposition it numerous times and then just burnish it into place.

Here's a possible alternative: floor film. It's the protective film used in home construction to protect carpet and tile floor from damage during finish work or remodeling. The smallest roll is $53, but it's 24" wide and 200' long. That's enough to potentially mask off 400 discs. You can also pick it up at Grainger industrial supply which has branch locations all over the pacific northwest. Here's a link:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/PLASTICOVER-Carpe...YH7?Pid=search