What is sandbagging?

[smobro]

I am not sure I understand what this term means. I assume it refers to a person who chooses to play in a division that they are on average too skilled to play in.
For example: If I am an 873 PDGA rated player and that rating method is the most widely accepted rating method in the sport, then I would be sandbagging if I played any event in the MA4 division which is for 850 rated players and under according to the current PDGA rules.
Isn't that correct?

[Trozzle!!!]

Well, if it was a PDGA event, you woulnt be allowed to play in that lower division. If it was a non sanctioned event, you could actually play any division you wanted. In your case, an 873 rated player, playing in a division that is normally for 850 and below rated players, then yes you would be sandbagging.
If you are playing in your correct division for a PDGA event, and you beat the competition by 5, 10, even 20 strokes. I wouldnt consider it sandbagging, since you were playing in the division that your rating allowed. Of course if you dominate a round by too much, your rating might just go up, pulling you out of that division after the next PDGA ratings update.

[shonfry]

Sandbagging is when you load your dragster down with sandbags for the
qualifying race and then take them out before the actual race to make your
opponents think your car is slower then it really is.

[CarlitosBonitos]

Definition: 1. Generally, any golfer who misleads others about his ability level, claiming to be worse than he actually is at golf.
2. More specifically, a golfer who artificially inflates his handicap index in order to better his chances of winning tournaments or bets.

A sandbagger is considered by many to be the lowest form of life on a golf course. Sandbaggers can inflate their handicap indexes by selectively leaving out their best rounds of golf when they post scores for handicap purposes.

Then, when the sandbaggers enters a tournament, they show, for example, a handicap index of 18 when, in fact, their true handicap might be closer to, as an example, 12. Voila, they've just bought themselves 6 extra strokes off their net score, and lowered their odds for winning their flight or the tournament.

Sandbaggers are, at base, cheaters and hustlers. Golfers who are found out to be sandbaggers are often ostracized and always berated and looked down upon.

Winning a tournament or bet in this fashion is called "sandbagging." A golfer who has won by sandbagging is said to have "sandbagged" his opponents.

Now i know this is for ball golf, but i think it applies to our sport as well, and nice reference to Drag racing, I also remember hearing that Boxers would put sand in their gloves, and as they punched the sand would shift and make their punches more forceful, thus gaining an unfair advantage over their competition.

[smobro]

Right on Shonfry. is that the origin? So, what that infers is that the bagger is modifying their game or device to get an advantage over others by using non-sanctioned methods. If a person is playing in a division that is sanctioned specifically for their rating by the organization that is sponsoring the event, then I can not figure out how that can be called sandbagging.

"Look at FPO - think Toni will be getting a trophy? " While I am totally stoked to see a female pro play this event, she will have to play down or play with the men open players if 3 more women don't play pro. If she plays down, then the Advanced women have to play against someone that is more skilled and should be in a different division. If she plays with the Open group, then she has that hill to climb.
This question illustrates just why people should start playing in their PDGA assigned divisions. If we had uniform registration according to a standard, then we would rarely see the problem of small divisions in events because accepted uniform rules and regs will grow the sport quickly in all divisions.
If players in Oregon would register for events according to their current PDGA rating then a TD would not have to provide trophies for small divisions very often because the divisions would grow through the acceptance of uniform standards. If TD's and players continue to disagree about where a player should play, that dissention and disarray can only lead to stunting the growth of this sport. I happen to believe that many of the more experienced players want to stunt the growth of the sport for a variety of selfish reasons. I have often overheard conversations between experienced players about this and many feel that growth brings slower casual rounds due to course overcrowding, More difficult to get into major tournaments, and tougher competition that pushes them lower down the cash chain.

We need to make a decision in Oregon to adopt PDGA standards related to divisions for the betterment of the future of the game. We have a huge amount of regional clout on the PDGA board and committees. If you don't like some of the PDGA rules, then talk to your PDGA reps and they will voice those for you.

[all2common]

Here's what Wiki had to say...

"Sandbagging is a term used in drag racing when a racer has a dial-in time much slower than the car can actually perform. The function of sandbagging is to guarantee a win by outperforming the slower opponent at first, and then hitting the brakes near the finish line in time to just barely beat the opponent. However, sandbaggers run the risk of beating their dial-in time, thus disqualifying them from the race. Sandbaggers must be experienced in controlling this technique, and therefore, it should not be attempted by beginners. Sandbagging faces much criticism, as many argue that it is essentially cheating."

[smobro]

"2) I have ordered a limited amount of trophies so the number awarded per divsion will vary based on the size of the division with just 1st place for smaller divisions. I decided to spend much more on nicer functional trophies this year, but there will be a few less to hand out."

So, let me get this straight. Only 4 divisions have more than 5 registered players in the Festivus. Of those, 1 is a non-trophy division, so 3 divisions have more than 5 players registered. The rest have 5 players or less. So does that mean that MM1, MA1 and MA2 get trophies for 1st,2nd, 3rd and all the other divisions (who have less than 5 players) should get a trophy for their first place finisher? But Greg said that MA3 and FW3 will not get trophies, because of the name of the division? I am so confused.
I don't wish to cause any bad blood, I just really don't understand the thought process that went into this.
Why just not offer MA3 and FW3 if you don't want to treat them the same as the other divisions?

[Flatroc]

IMO ratings have absolutely nothing to do with where a "bagger" or anyone else could or should play.
Example:
A player has been playing pro for 15 years but has a PDGA rating which allows him to play amateur.
I think a true sandbagger would grasp this chance.
It's easy to decide where you should play, IF you have any integrity.
Reach way down inside and ask yourself where you should really be playing and then do it.
If your ratings say you can't, I guess you're screwed.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Flatroc

IMO ratings have absolutely nothing to do with where a "bagger" or anyone else could or should play.
Example:
A player has been playing pro for 15 years but has a PDGA rating which allows him to play amateur.
I think a true sandbagger would grasp this chance.
It's easy to decide where you should play, IF you have any integrity.
Reach way down inside and ask yourself where you should really be playing and then do it.
If your ratings say you can't, I guess you're screwed.

The really cool thing about ratings is that they are objective. They don't get hung up on labels (pro, recreational, etc) and they don't care who you are or how long you've been playing.

If someone has been playing 15 years and has a rating that allows them to play AM2 or AM3 they are not sandbagging. That's just who they are.
I've been playing 3 1/2 years and am rated <900. Others have been playing less than a year and are rated > 900. Everyone develops their game at different speeds. Time playing should not be factor in deciding which division someone should play in. Ratings should.

[proto something or other]

"SANDBAGGER!" is what you shout at people during awards ceremonies if you respect them and admire their abilities. It was pretty common about 9 years ago to hear people being called sandbagger, that, for a while, it was reclaimed as a positive. I think those days may be gone now.

[Jason Philips]

Sandbagging is simple in my eyes. If you are playing the lowest division you are able, just to place in the top 5 you are most likely bagging. When prizes and top finishes become more important than fighting for a win or stepping your game up then maybe it is time to look at why you play.

Personally Kent I think you are a great guy but I am baffled as to why you are not playing intermediate. I know that Bob and Scott and everyone are fun to play with but at some point if you are improving more rapidly than your friends at least in competition there will be a time to step forward to allow people who do belong in the lower division to compete and improve their games in tight races.

[smobro]

Originally Posted by Jason Philips

Sandbagging is simple in my eyes. If you are playing the lowest division you are able, just to place in the top 5 you are most likely bagging. When prizes and top finishes become more important than fighting for a win or stepping your game up then maybe it is time to look at why you play.

Personally Kent I think you are a great guy but I am baffled as to why you are not playing intermediate. I know that Bob and Scott and everyone are fun to play with but at some point if you are improving more rapidly than your friends at least in competition there will be a time to step forward to allow people who do belong in the lower division to compete and improve their games in tight races.

Whatup Philips. I have 22 rounds included in my most recent PGA rating. That means that out of 22 competitive rounds, I have averaged a rating of 873. That puts me 27 points below the MA2 minmum rating to play it. It has taken me two years of competitive rounds and alot of practice rounds and putting just to get to that point. My first rating in August of 2007 was 843. From that it doesn't appear that I am progressing as rapidly as you may think. But thanks for rubbing salt in that wound.
Heres the deal, I am playing in the division I am supposed to play in. There is a MA4 division available for sub 850 rated players. I am not playing in that, but I just barely made it out. I can not for the life of me understand why you would go here when you know how critical it is for TD's and players to stick to a standard of divisional play for the betterment of the game. If the 40% of the MA2 field that continue to register for an incorrectly rated division would just play MA3 as they are supposed to, I would get that competition you are referring to. BTW I have not won an event in MA3 either. Thanks for rubbing salt in that wound as well.
Dude, you had an awful injury that I am proud to see you come back from. I always enjoy playing disc with you too. I am certain that if you and I were properly placed divisionally along with everyone else, disc and life in general would be just a little rosier. Until then goodanya and I hope to throw with you again soon.

[smobro]

Originally Posted by smobro

Whatup Philips. I have 22 rounds included in my most recent PGA rating. That means that out of 22 competitive rounds, I have averaged a rating of 873. That puts me 27 points below the MA2 minmum rating to play it. It has taken me two years of competitive rounds and alot of practice rounds and putting just to get to that point. My first rating in August of 2007 was 843. From that it doesn't appear that I am progressing as rapidly as you may think. But thanks for rubbing salt in that wound.
Heres the deal, I am playing in the division I am supposed to play in. There is a MA4 division available for sub 850 rated players. I am not playing in that, but I just barely made it out. I can not for the life of me understand why you would go here when you know how critical it is for TD's and players to stick to a standard of divisional play for the betterment of the game. If the 40% of the MA2 field that continue to register for an incorrectly rated division would just play MA3 as they are supposed to, I would get that competition you are referring to. BTW I have not won an event in MA3 either. Thanks for rubbing salt in that wound as well.
Dude, you had an awful injury that I am proud to see you come back from. I always enjoy playing disc with you too. I am certain that if you and I were properly placed divisionally along with everyone else, disc and life in general would be just a little rosier. Until then goodanya and I hope to throw with you again soon.

Oh, and I am baffled why I can not seem to progress to MA2 either. It frickin kills me every time I throw a stupid shot in a tourney. I seem to do it alot. Sucks being lame

[Sam]

No, Kent. I think Jason is right. Include me among the baffled, "Mr. -18 at Orchard". If you move up and challenge yourself, you will find the reward huge.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Sam

"Mr. -18 at Orchard".

In Doubles. At Orchard. C'mon Sam. Surely you see that that may not be as accurate of skill indicator as, say, 22 rated PDGA rounds.

[smobro]

Originally Posted by Sam

No, Kent. I think Jason is right. Include me among the baffled, "Mr. -18 at Orchard". If you move up and challenge yourself, you will find the reward huge.

More salt in the wound. You gotta stop bringing up Doubles accomplishments just so I will tell you how great you are.
I don't follow how a doubles score has any bearing on how an individual performs in tournament play. apparently, I could use some lessons from Sexton.

["Over the Hill" Bob]

Originally Posted by smobro

More salt in the wound. You gotta stop bringing up Doubles accomplishments just so I will tell you how great you are.
I don't follow how a doubles score has any bearing on how an individual performs in tournament play. apparently, I could use some lessons from Sexton.

See the thread on Nate offering golf lessons?

Bob

[Sausage Fingers]

They are just looking to pad their division so they can win more $$$!

You are dead on! If you have 22 rated rounds and your rating says you should play MA3 then do it and show the "you're number one" sign to any who say you are wrong.
When your tournament game (not doubles or 3-headed monster or casual rounds) improves enough to compete in MA2 your rating will make it so you HAVE to play MA2.
All of the old-school "if you win a division you have to move up" or "you'll get better faster by playing higher divisions" is a bunch of crap.
And the wussies who get browbeaten into playing a division 25+ rating points above their rating (assuming a good sample of rated rounds) because of the stupid NAME of the division, DESERVE to get fleeced by the players playing in the correct division for their rating.

Now there is a MAJOR difference between playing Pro and playing AM. When to turn Pro and jump into the big pond is a totally different discussion. But what division to play in AM is pretty cut and dried. Unless there is some outside reason why your rating is artificially low (injury, very few rated rounds, took extended time off from competition etc.) then you should be playing in a division that your rating dictates. And as soon as you start to play consistently in competition, your rating will increase and force you to play in the next division.
The system can work, but only if we all play by the same rules.

Mr. Phillips and Sam can bite me!

[Sausage Fingers]

Originally Posted by "Over the Hill" Bob

See the thread on Nate offering golf lessons?

Bob

Bob and I are gonna do it, you should join us!

[Sausage Fingers]

Originally Posted by proto something or other

"SANDBAGGER!" is what you shout at people during awards ceremonies if you respect them and admire their abilities. It was pretty common about 9 years ago to hear people being called sandbagger, that, for a while, it was reclaimed as a positive. I think those days may be gone now.

Hell, I yell 'SANDBAGGER' when the Pro winner is announced and 'AGEBAGGER' when the Master winner is announced! It's all good!