Marking a Lie - PDGA

Chuck Kennedy · #1 August 6th, 2010, 07:02 AM

New PDGA Rules School topic: http://www.pdga.com/marking-a-lie

Kenny B · #2 August 6th, 2010, 11:45 AM

Thanks Chuck! I really like the Rules School posts.

Rideout · #3 August 23rd, 2010, 11:20 AM

I don't understand why we get to choose between two different lies.

We are given 30cm behind our lie (or about 1/4" less than 1 foot, 11 3/4"). Why does the player get to choose if the 30cm starts from the front or the back of the disc he/she threw? Does any other sport allow such a choice to be made by the player?

It seems to me that the lie should always be calculated from the front of the thown disc, yet there is no place in the rules (at least, I couldn't find it anywhere) that establishes this.

I think a player that chooses to leave their thrown disc on the ground as their lie must keep their stance for the next shot within 30cm of the front of disc, not the back. Yet, it seems to be widely accepted to not even question why we have two acceptable lies to choose from.

Any thoughts?

Mike Rideout

Tim · #4 August 23rd, 2010, 11:27 AM

Maybe it would help to clear things up if the rules were to say "within 30 cm of the rear of the marking disc."

sillybizz · #5 August 23rd, 2010, 11:54 AM

Maybe make marking your lie with a mini mandatory? Just a thought, not an opinion.

Tim · #6 August 23rd, 2010, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sillybizz

Maybe make marking your lie with a mini mandatory? Just a thought, not an opinion.

That used to be the rule, but it was found to aid the speed of play by allowing players to use their thrown disc as the marker. I like that rule because I almost always opt to just throw from my disc, plus I like having the extra element of strategy if you're stuck behind a tree or something.

T-Bird · #7 August 23rd, 2010, 01:40 PM

I like that you can choose. Comes in handy sometimes.

Rideout · #8 August 23rd, 2010, 01:49 PM

I couldn't agree more that it is nice to choose because it does add that element of strategy, but should it? I know that ball golf needs a different set of rules because it is a different sport, but could you imagine an option of choosing where your lie could be placed in a sport that is so founded on the old saying, "you must play it from where it lies"?

Either way it is the discrepancy that I don't like. How about just making it 50cm from the front of the thrown disc or the rear of the marker disc. This would include the full range we are given now and it would clear up any confusion.

Mike

Chuck Kennedy · #9 August 23rd, 2010, 02:26 PM

To some extent, the rule that allows the disc to be used as a marker is also safety related (not hitting your hand on a trunk), which can make a difference if your thrown disc is just behind a tree trunk. Disc golf is not really a game where we "play it where it lies" like ball golf. We "take a stance from where it lies" but the disc release point for the next throw can be from any of a thousand different release points in space.

Rideout · #10 August 23rd, 2010, 02:54 PM

All the same, my problem is still in the discrepancy with the way the rule is worded. I agree that a longer line, of which, a player gets to choose where they mark their lie not only resolves some safety issues but also gives some strategy to the players game.

It just seems crazy to me that when a player asks me about this rule at one of my tourneys, I have to tell them that they have 30cm from behind their thrown disc or they have 30 cm from behind their marker disc. Especially since the player can't put their thrown disc back down after picking it up. We allow a group decission for marking a lie with other lie mishaps, why not this one as well?

Mike Rideout

Ol' Bob · #11 August 23rd, 2010, 04:06 PM

Looks like one of those things where you have to change the system from the inside. I'd make the priority somewhere below getting rid of the designated hitter.

Chuck Kennedy · #12 August 23rd, 2010, 04:42 PM

Quote:

It just seems crazy to me that when a player asks me about this rule at one of my tourneys, I have to tell them that they have 30cm from behind their thrown disc or they have 30 cm from behind their marker disc.

That's not what you tell them. They have 30cm behind their marker disc. The "marker" is defined as a mini if used, or the thrown disc if it's lying flat on the ground and they choose to use it as their marker.

Rideout · #13 August 23rd, 2010, 05:23 PM

I understand the marker is either the mini or the thrown disc. I switched the words mini and marker in my last post. There, now that little typo is explained.

Doesn't it still come down to the player having 30cm behind their mini or 30cm behind their thrown disc?

A lie should be determined by the edge of the thrown disc that is closest to the pin. A player should then have 50cm behind his/her lie in line with the lie and the basket.

This seems much more clear to me.

Mike

jshrack · #14 August 23rd, 2010, 05:35 PM

http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=34406

Chuck Kennedy · #15 August 23rd, 2010, 05:42 PM

The lie is whatever those who write the rules want it to be. There's no natural answer like ball golf where the ball is played from where it lies. Given a choice, I would prefer we went back to the original rule that required a mini marker be used. I'm not sure 50 cm would be easier to judge for foot faults than 30cm since 30cm is closer to the size of a player's foot.

Rideout · #16 August 23rd, 2010, 05:58 PM

It being a players association I figured we, as the players, kind of write the rules, or, at least, can mention a possible change to the board and expect an explaination. This conversation is an attempt to see if anyone else feels the way I do or if most people feel pretty comfortable with the way the rule is written. I know there are some that are confused by it but I don't think they make up the majority.

Judging foot faults in this sport is a joke aside from someone stepping on their lie or someone guilty of a falling put; just about every other foot fault judgement needs film.

Mike

KenGilmore · #17 August 23rd, 2010, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rideout

This conversation is an attempt to see if anyone else feels the way I do or if most people feel pretty comfortable with the way the rule is written.

FWIW, I have no problem with the rule as it is written, in spirit or in law, and actually find your suggestion more confusing and troublesome.

Hope that helps.

Sausage Fingers · #18 August 23rd, 2010, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rideout

I don't understand why we get to choose between two different lies.

We are given 30cm behind our lie (or about 1/4" less than 1 foot, 11 3/4"). Why does the player get to choose if the 30cm starts from the front or the back of the disc he/she threw? Does any other sport allow such a choice to be made by the player?

It seems to me that the lie should always be calculated from the front of the thown disc, yet there is no place in the rules (at least, I couldn't find it anywhere) that establishes this.

I think a player that chooses to leave their thrown disc on the ground as their lie must keep their stance for the next shot within 30cm of the front of disc, not the back. Yet, it seems to be widely accepted to not even question why we have two acceptable lies to choose from.

Any thoughts?

Mike Rideout

Really?

You read an article with this diagram in it and THAT'S your comment? Let alone the insane notions about thrown discs needing to be perfectly FLAT on the ground to be considered 'on the playing surface' and eligible to be used as your marker and THIS is what binds your britches?

I had three rules 'discussions' at last weekend's event at Horning's Hideout. One on having all of your support points on the teeing surface, one on the line of play behind your mini marker going to the wrong side of the mando and the last one about lifting the foot on the line of play off the ground before throwing from a backstance. These rules get abused all of the time without making weird rule extrapolations to further complicate the rules that we already play under.

But the real bitch of the whole thing is the very real problem of having 'official rules' NOT be in a printed format that can be carried on the course. First the problem was with the rulebook and the competition manual being separate, but to now include the Rules Q&As AND the 'Rules School' from the PDGA forum that STILL won't let me post, I'm gonna have to call BS on the whole thing and say F the rules!

Now I'm gonna have to change my stupid signature...

JMan · #19 August 23rd, 2010, 08:40 PM

I find it funny that the pdga jumped on the metric system in the late 70s (it was a big thing that the US was going to switch over in the 80s) and they stuck with it, though Ronnie RayGun said no way (better to deregulate banking). But really, how many out there know how long 30cm is...come on...beuller...

Rideout · #20 August 23rd, 2010, 09:04 PM

WOW!!! WTF Sausage Fingers? I didn't realize I had a bitch or a binding of the britches. I was bringing up a point, which I thought was related to the original topic, that some players and myself had a discussion about during a tournament. We thought it was hard to find an absolute solution to our question in the rules as they are printed. I figured I would bring the discussion here for some worthey feedback. Is my question about the rules any less relevant than any other question?

Thanks Ken, it does help.

When I am out there I definitley think of it at a 1/4" less than a foot.

Mike