Challenger Vs Wizard

[avenger_ray]

I currently throw Challengers and have for 2 of my 3 years playing. With that said, I've been experimenting with a mixed bag philosophy and was wondering if anyone had thrown these molds against each other. I hear a lot of good things about the Wizard and have noticed a lot of people that throw mixed bags putt with Wizards. My Challengers work excellent for me and have helped my putting to become my strong point over the past year but I was wondering if the Wizard could possibly be better. I've also read that the Wizard is great off the tee. Nikko Locastro sure made those things work this year! Any help or info on this would be greatly appreciated. Happy Holidays to all

[zippyboy]

I have been using a Wizard in place of the XD I had been using for a couple of years. I like the feel of the disc in hand, and I have no real complaints about it so far. I personally never could get a Challenger to work for me, so my opinion may not be best for ya...

[gwillim]

The biggest problems with switching from Challengers to Wizards are availability and consistency. Wizards, when you get a good one, are fantastic. They are just a tad bit faster than a D Challenger, and seems to hold a slightly straighter flight path. They are also a better driving putter in my opinion. Wizards, when you get a bad one, are crap.

Gateway has always had seriously issues with quality control at their plant. They can't seem to make any of their discs in a consistent manner. You can pick up two Wizards that are the labeled exactly the same, and in reality they are VERY different.

This has always been an issue for Gateway, and is one of the reasons that many retailers don't carry their products.

The D Challenger, on the other hand, is one of the most consistent discs in production. If you buy a 172g white D Challenger, it will be exactly the same density, feel, flight patter, etc, as all other 172g white D Challengers you have ever seen, or ever will.

Like I said, good Wizards are definitely VERY good discs, but it's risky business. If you want to switch over, go find somewhere that sells them in person, like DGD or N/A. If you find that you like the way that they feel, buy one, if you still like they way that it feels after two weeks, immediately go back and buy 10-20 of them, because it's not likely you'll be able to find more that feel just like the first one.

[proto something or other]

I switched from Challengers to Wizards about one year ago. The Wizard has almost all but replaced the Roc in my bag as a straight midrange disc. They are excellent driving putters, as Ryan mentioned.

I have a few that I like. I haven't lost any or been forced to replace any, so I can't comment on the consistency of them from run to run. The ones that I drive with are E Wizards. The ones that I putt with are Medium S Wizards.

[Tim]

I'll agree that wizards do have consistency issues, but I wouldn't say any of them are crap, some I just like better than others (though, I do have a super floppy SSS warlock that I'd put in the crap category). I also agree that they're great off the teepad. I've been putting with them for a couple years now, but just recently started driving with them on a more regular basis. I would throw midranges on shorter holes, but when I played a somewhat pitch & putt course about a month and a half ago, I just felt like using my wizard on anything 250 and lower, and I was surprised at how many of my drives were as easy to get there as they were with my mids. The Wiz is nice and stable, so you can put plenty of oomph on it, so long as you release it clean , it won't turn over on you. They can take lots of abuse and keep that stability, which is nice, but of course the downside is that if you want a good anny putter, it'll take some time to get a Wiz broken in (nice that they've released the Magic now).

My gripe with the consistency thing is that it seems hard to find firmer Wizards these days. Dave seems to be mainly interested in making softish putters, and I haven't had any luck in finding suitable backups for my medium-ish glow Wizards.

[TreeLove]

A Discraft vs. Gateway question? What a non-issue!

[avenger_ray]

Originally Posted by TreeLove

A Discraft vs. Gateway question? What a non-issue!

Is it a non issue because you are close minded about other companies like I used to be? Lets see....Garrett Gurthie beat Climo on his home course this year while still on Gateway, Nikko Locastro tore up the whole tour this year and gave borg a run for his money at Worlds throwing a MIXED BAG, Johnny Mccray placed very high at Worlds and USDGC this year after being near death last year throwing Gateway. Nate Doss - Earned $26000 in 13 tournaments. 1st at USDGC, 2nd at Worlds, and 6th at The Japan Open. 2nd in NT Points throwing DISCRAFT. Eric McCabe Earned $28,500 in 33 tournaments. 15 wins and had 15 4 digit pay days. Player's Cup Champion. 8th at Worlds. 4th in NT Points throwing Discraft. Do I need to go on? What a lame childish response!

[Micah]

Ray, none of those points are germane to the discussion try finding a few cam todds at a reasonable price and I might consider throwing challengers, good wizards are nearly impossible to find consistently, KC's on the other hand are very consistent run to run, cheap, and easy to find.

[avenger_ray]

Originally Posted by Micah

Ray, none of those points are germane to the discussion try finding a few cam todds at a reasonable price and I might consider throwing challengers, good wizards are nearly impossible to find consistently, KC's on the other hand are very consistent run to run, cheap, and easy to find.

I was making the point that my discussion isn't a non-issue just because it isn't Innova related. I would also never make a comment like that about an Innova, Millennium thread etc.(grow up already)
Gwillim- "The D Challenger, on the other hand, is one of the most consistent discs in production. If you buy a 172g white D Challenger, it will be exactly the same density, feel, flight patter, etc, as all other 172g white D Challengers you have ever seen, or ever will."
Perfectly stated! I have no doubt that the KC's are consistent etc being as they're one of the best Innova discs but so are Challengers. Maybe I'll try a KC Aviar next and start a thread about it.

[Eric Olson]

Here's Gateway's own explanation of their putter plastic variances.

http://gdstour.com/gateway_putter_flexibility.php

I've been throwing Wizards for a while myself. As long as they are on the firmer side of the scale, the tactile differences in the plastic runs don't make much of a difference to me. Especially once they have a little wear on them, the differences are mostly insignificant unless you're the kind of person that places a lot of stock in arcane nonsense like how a disc "feels in the hand".

The actual measurable difference between a Wizard with a hard smooth finish vs one with a tacky or chalky finish is in the manner they age. Smooth, harder surfaced wizards are very difficult to warp but are quicker to dent or gouge. Softer tacky ones are the reverse.

I like to throw off the tee with dinner plate stiff ones and mostly comfortable with putting any wizard.

[TreeLove]

Originally Posted by Eric Olson

the differences are mostly insignificant unless you're the kind of person that places a lot of stock in arcane nonsense like how a disc "feels in the hand".

OK, let's try this experiment. Since disc feel does not matter, let's temporarily shut off the feeling in your throwing hand, and then see if it affects your throw.

[dan]

Originally Posted by TreeLove

OK, let's try this experiment. Since disc feel does not matter, let's temporarily shut off the feeling in your throwing hand, and then see if it affects your throw.

I recently experimented with a Wizard to replace my Rhynos (I don't have any experience with Challengers). I had 2 major problems, and I will be sticking to the Rhyno for now.

Problem 1 was the stability. I like how stable the Rhyno is, especially at high speed. The Wizard kept flipping over on me when I threw it hard.

Problem 2 was the "feel." It didn't have anything to do with the plastic itself. I don't care what a plastic feels like as long as it doesn't slip out of my hands. My problem is the depth of the lip (about 5/8" vs about 1/2" on the Rhyno). It feels to deep for my grip. My fingers frequently caught the lip when I released.

A note about the plastic. The Wizards I got are in Gateway's organic plastic. It feels great. Very tacky, while not being too floppy. It also smells delicious. Seriously. It smells like maple syrup. I take a big whiff of one every time I pick it up. If I could get a Rhyno in this plastic, I'm sure I'd pick one up. Did I mention how good it smells?

[Eric Olson]

TreeLove, I realize I'm in the minority on disc feel, whatever that is. It's pretty hard to putt when my hand is frozen numb, but as long as I can get a sense of where my fingers are connected to the disc and how much pressure I am applying it doesn't matter much to me what the surface texture is like.

Dan, if I remember correctly you have a wacky putting grip. That's right, I'm calling you out on your grip. It's possibly the reason you only like shallow rimmed putters. I will take those organic wizards off your hands at your earliest convenience though.

Now back to your Wizard vs Challenger discussion... If there were suddenly no more Wizards, the Challenger is one of the two or three putters I would probably use instead.

[Pizzel]

Forget Wizards and Challengers (I have tried both) and just toss a couple DX XDs in your bag. They are great for putting and there is nothing better off the tee!

[Jet]

Originally Posted by dan

My problem is the depth of the lip (about 5/8" vs about 1/2" on the Rhyno). It feels to deep for my grip. My fingers frequently caught the lip when I released.

Agreed. Rhyno fits my hand the best of any putter I've tried.

[LJ Jubner]

Originally Posted by Tim

... I played a somewhat pitch & putt course about a month and a half ago,

I haven't had any luck in finding suitable backups for my medium-ish glow Wizards.

So Tim you finally admit TC is now a P/P.

I agree the glow 's are the most consistent. I had em for the 2005 St Pats and they were great. Before that the Proto Wizzard was one of two disc's that gateway made that was worth a crap.The first year e element is the other. And the arm breaker weights don't help either.

[topdawgy58]

I really like my Wizzard. I also have a challenger and its my backup.

[Arose]

i like the feel of the challenger more. and i tend to have a cleaner release with it. however i really like the zone and im thinking of switching to it for all putting duty's.

[JMan]

The Challenger and Wizard molds are SO alike, the only real differences are in the plastics and the production process. Oh and if they can sell you that the Cam Todds are somehow different (they're not Micah, don't waste the $, buy Pro D). I finally found a Challenger in soft Pro D plastic; it has become the right to left equivalent of my Soft Mag.

[Micah]

I wouldn't ever consider wasting that much money on a putter, that is why for now I stick with KC's. Pro D doesn't have the right feel in my hand, I wish discraft made a comparable plastic to kc for wasps, buzzes and challengers.