Rules Comment: Mandatory takes precedence over OB

[Kenny B]

I think to maintain the original hole design and to make things simple, the following should be done.

1. Keep the mando tree and drop zone the same as designed.
2. Keep the OB line from the road to the mando tree the same.
3. During tournaments, clearly mark the missed mando line where Eric has sketched it and also define it as an OB line so that the OB area is bounded by the road, two OB lines, and the fence (not currently sketched in Eric's graphic).

The following would result.

1. Shots short of the mando and over the OB line throw from where they were last inbounds with a one stroke penalty.
2. Shots that miss the mando, but land beyond the OB/missed mando line go to the drop zone with a one stroke penalty and no one complains because the disc would be resting in a clearly designated inbounds area.
3. Shots like C in the graphic...tough luck, don't throw so close to the mando next time.

[Kenny B]

Got to thinking more and here is another way to explain it. The hole is set up like this (just without the playground)...

Pretend your looking out from the tee and in front of you, a little left is a nice rectangular, fenced playground with lots of little kids having fun. That playground is OB (obviously). Now, on the right hand corner furthest from you is an old tree planted a long time ago that has grown and enveloped the fence at the corner. That tree is a mando because not only do you not want discs landing in the playground, you also don't want people even trying to throw over it. The teepad, tree, and playground's far fence are all situated such that the missed mando line exactly follows the playground's far fence

So if player throws into the playground, they are OB, play the next shot from they were last in bounds with a one stroke penalty.

If a player throws over the playground and lands on the other side of the playground's far fence, then they would've missed the mando and have to go to the drop zone with a one stroke penalty.

Lastly, if a player makes the mando, hits the ground and rolls around to the playground's far fence and goes through the new hole in the fence that little Jonny from across the street cut out while playing with his dad's new letherman tool, then it sucks to be you, ha ha! You're OB, play from where you were last in bounds.

[Chuck Kennedy]

That would work. The part that will confuse a few players is why they can't throw completely over the OB area and not get penalized.

[TreeLove]

Shot C is not safe, it is OB. Anything "left of the OB line" is OB. The OB line continues due west from the tree (if North is up in the sketch) at a right angle to the red OB line in the sketch (until it hits the fence, not shown) which becomes the OB line from there. The yellow line is drawn properly, but it is the mando perpendicular, NOT the OB continuation. In fact, Shot B is BARELY in bounds.

[olydiscgolf]

Originally Posted by TreeLove

Shot C is not safe, it is OB. Anything "left of the OB line" is OB. The OB line continues due west from the tree (if North is up in the sketch) at a right angle to the red OB line in the sketch (until it hits the fence, not shown) which becomes the OB line from there. The yellow line is drawn properly, but it is the mando perpendicular, NOT the OB continuation. In fact, Shot B is BARELY in bounds.

I don't think that the OB continuation is relevant here, the mando tree ends the OB line, so it doesn't continue at 90 degrees like normal. The only perpendicular line that is relevant is the mando line, and that is drawn at 90 degrees from line of play to the basket.

[Kenny B]

Originally Posted by olydiscgolf

I don't think that the OB continuation is relevant here, the mando tree ends the OB line, so it doesn't continue at 90 degrees like normal. The only perpendicular line that is relevant is the mando line, and that is drawn at 90 degrees from line of play to the basket.

I would say an OB continuation line from the tree to the fence is only relevant here for shots that go to the right of the mando tree but roll or bounce back towards the OB area.

I think that line has to be clearly marked for all future tournaments because I don't think the PDGA rules provides direction for where that line is in the absence of a clearly marked line.

Also, another thing I recently re-remembered is that the line for whether or not you missed a mando (in the absence of a marked line) is perpendicular to the line from the teepad to the mando, not the mando to the basket.

[olydiscgolf]

Originally Posted by Kenny B

I would say an OB continuation line from the tree to the fence is only relevant here for shots that go to the right of the mando tree but roll or bounce back towards the OB area.

I think that line has to be clearly marked for all future tournaments because I don't think the PDGA rules provides direction for where that line is in the absence of a clearly marked line.

Also, another thing I recently re-remembered is that the line for whether or not you missed a mando (in the absence of a marked line) is perpendicular to the line from the teepad to the mando, not the mando to the basket.

A player shouldn't be penalized for making the mando and then rolling back out of bounds. The mando ends the OB line. Once your around the mando there should be no OB.

Your right about the mando line playing perpendicular from a straight line from tee to mando.

[Kenny B]

Originally Posted by olydiscgolf

A player shouldn't be penalized for making the mando and then rolling back out of bounds. The mando ends the OB line. Once your around the mando there should be no OB.

Your right about the mando line playing perpendicular from a straight line from tee to mando.

I think we should think of that area as a lake (or playground as described above). It shouldn't matter if you make a mando; if it's in the water, it's OB.

That hole needs to have all sides of the OB area clearly marked. The mando tree being there is not what makes it an OB area. It's an OB area because inside it is the Teepad and fairway of SE hole 3. It should be OB no matter how you get there. At least that's my opinion

[Yardbird]

Well said.... add a line to complete the OB area. Also, include the Teepad for SE hole 3 in the OB area.

If you don't want to end up OB, then don't take on the added risk by trying to throw far. Play it safe and set up for your second shot. Par is a good score on that hole and birdies are rare. I have seen lots of fours or worse scored on this hole.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Yes, you need to add a line somewhere so that OB area is completely enclosed from the back side. We've seen problems at tournaments where a painted OB line just stops and it's not obvious where the line is if someone lands beyond that end point. Always curl painted OB lines back to some "permanent" OB area like a wall, body of water, fence, street, cement, etc.

[olydiscgolf]

Originally Posted by Chuck Kennedy

Yes, you need to add a line somewhere so that OB area is completely enclosed from the back side. We've seen problems at tournaments where a painted OB line just stops and it's not obvious where the line is if someone lands beyond that end point. Always curl painted OB lines back to some "permanent" OB area like a wall, body of water, fence, street, cement, etc.

I guess I just disagree with you guys on this hole;

Chuck, you are right about OB needing to be totally enclosed, except in this case, where the mando clearly defines the end of the OB line. There is no question about being in bounds or out of bounds on this hole. The ONLY question on this hole is; Where is the line that defines making it past the wrong side of the mando, or simply being out of bounds. Once past the Mando, the OB disappears.



Now there is another hole at Steilly that has a very poorly marked "ending" to the OB line and that is hole SE14. This is a case of the OB needing to be clearly marked all the way around like a water hazard.

[Chuck Kennedy]

There's no "except in this case" allowed. It's perfectly fine if the line marking the "wrong" side of the mando is the OB boundary going to the left but it does enclose the OB just in case any discs do come around the mando tree and curl back to the left.

[Kenny B]

Originally Posted by olydiscgolf

Now there is another hole at Steilly that has a very poorly marked "ending" to the OB line and that is hole SE14. This is a case of the OB needing to be clearly marked all the way around like a water hazard.

Yes! That hole has a terrible OB line that just stops! It is quite frustrating. Luckily, no one in my group has ever landed near the end of that line.

[Tim]

Which one is SE14 again?

[Nathan]

The first firestation hole.

[Joshua Olmsted]

Yeah, hole 14 is a gag. I saw a few heated arguments at the last PDGA tournament. Including a guy in my group who had the sad debate involving the unclear OB line and his unfortunate 8ppp.... on the last hole.....which pushed him from +1 to +6..... Man that hole is nuts!!!

[REDFIVE]

SE 1 just extend the OB from the tree and continue it up with the bushes on the left as OB. This line is can continue all the way to and around the basket if needed. Keep the mando for safety reasons. Or it can be left the way it is and people can just land in the fairway; roc, roc, par. SE 14 the lines should wrap around thebasket and meet up at some point so the hole is a defined fairway, or just land in bounds. Roc, roc, par.

[TreeLove]

Right. OB lines cannot just end in space. Washington seems to have a repeating problem with this (e.g. extra blackberry hole at Lakewood). The solution is very simple: Complete your OB line!

At Steilly, a red line should be added, connecting the mando tree, running due west (assuming north = top), to the fence. All debates are then easily ended.

If you ever played Ice Bowl at Lunchtime, you will recall the miles (literally) of string, paint, and flags used to clearly mark the OB. Every OB line on that course is continuous. There is no question where any OB line "begins" or "ends", because they don't.

[olydiscgolf]

Washington=BAD Oregon=GOOD

[Toby Puttzinski]

Here's my $.02






ok, I'm actually just posting to go for the most threads posted on record.