Playing above your rating (from Eugene Celebration thread)

[Scott]

Originally Posted by TYVEK

the ones that travel up here to washington have all been great players and had good sportsmanship.

We only let our finest pros travel. The rest we keep locked away down here.

[olydiscgolf]

I thinks it's ironic that people play up divisions to play with better people, but when playing the bottom of that division end up getting placed on a mixed division card. Granted, you do possibly get to play one round with the top pros, but you still end up playing with players in your skill set or worse, whatever division they may be in. It seems to me that the bottom card of the top division isn't the place to learn how to compete! I see more competition in the lead card for intermediate than the bottom of the pro card. From what I've experienced, handling the "competition" is the way to get better!

I learn technique from practicing. I learn how to "WIN" from competing against people close to my level. I learn course management from knowing and playing course.

If you want to hang with the pros, follow in the gallery!

[snap7times]

Originally Posted by all2common

Now there's an example of osmosis.

LOL, oh burnnnnnn burnnnn, call the fire department, I've been burned! Well, Flash, I want to play the short layout... so waiting on pools etc, so I can better plan etc... and maybe beg to move to another division to match my schedule.. Since i am driving 10 hours bleh...

[DMajor]

I believe the ratings guidelines were established to prevent people from sandbagging not the other way around. If you want to donate and are not having a negative impact on people in the division your playing with than go for it. Time will tell if it works.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by DMajor

I believe the ratings guidelines were established to prevent people from sandbagging not the other way around. If you want to donate and are not having a negative impact on people in the division your playing with than go for it. Time will tell if it works.

Actually, there is a negative impact. Each division becomes less competitive from top to bottom.

In the "Everyone plays by ratings" model, you have several smaller but equal sized divisions that are competitive from top to bottom. In other words, players near the bottim of the division may only be a few strokes away from those near the top. That makes for some very exciting golf.

In the "Play Wherever the Hell You Feel Like" model, you have a couple of very large divisions that end up being seperated by 30-40 strokes or more - sometimes a LOT more. These divisions usually end up informally divided anyway; the top half and the bottom half. This is less exciting, unless you are near the top of the top half.

[Sam]

I want to commend Scott on his very fair and unbiased (Fox News style) post about playing up.

I do not see each division becoming less competitive in the same way Scott does. For me, I am excited to see a bigger field in my division because of an increased payout and because there are more and more players who want to play with the big boys and recognize that a stint in Advanced will help them become better players.

I really do not believe that this is still being debated. If you want to stay at about the same level you are at and improve slowly, stay where you are and enjoy the Recreational division to your heart's content. We need many of these players at our tournaments so that those of us who play in the more serious divisions appear better by comparison.

If you want to become a better tournament disc golfer, however, you should play tournaments with players who are better than you are, examine what they are doing and why, and then take that away and practice the skills you need to achieve the same or similar results.

No brainer here, really. I think we have dozens and dozens of examples of this working just in our area alone.

[Jonny Roc]

Originally Posted by Sam

I want to commend Scott on his very fair and unbiased (Fox News style) post about playing up.

I do not see each division becoming less competitive in the same way Scott does. For me, I am excited to see a bigger field in my division because of an increased payout and because there are more and more players who want to play with the big boys and recognize that a stint in Advanced will help them become better players.

I really do not believe that this is still being debated. If you want to stay at about the same level you are at and improve slowly, stay where you are and enjoy the Recreational division to your heart's content. We need many of these players at our tournaments so that those of us who play in the more serious divisions appear better by comparison.

If you want to become a better tournament disc golfer, however, you should play tournaments with players who are better than you are, examine what they are doing and why, and then take that away and practice the skills you need to achieve the same or similar results.

No brainer here, really. I think we have dozens and dozens of examples of this working just in our area alone.

Well Put Sam

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Sam

I want to commend Scott on his very fair and unbiased (Fox News style) post about playing up.

I do not see each division becoming less competitive in the same way Scott does. For me, I am excited to see a bigger field in my division because of an increased payout and because there are more and more players who want to play with the big boys and recognize that a stint in Advanced will help them become better players.

I really do not believe that this is still being debated. If you want to stay at about the same level you are at and improve slowly, stay where you are and enjoy the Recreational division to your heart's content. We need many of these players at our tournaments so that those of us who play in the more serious divisions appear better by comparison.

If you want to become a better tournament disc golfer, however, you should play tournaments with players who are better than you are, examine what they are doing and why, and then take that away and practice the skills you need to achieve the same or similar results.

No brainer here, really. I think we have dozens and dozens of examples of this working just in our area alone.

I'm getting a jab from Sam about being unfair and biased?

Sam, we are almost in agreement on this. I do agree that the way to get better is to play with better players. I agree 100%. No argument whatsoever.

I just don't think the time to do it is at a tournament. Practice with someone better. Learn new tricks. Develop them. Then take them to a tournament and kick ass (among players of your level). When you start beating them consisitently it will be obvious when it is time to move up.

[jevon]

Originally Posted by Sam

If you want to become a better tournament disc golfer, however, you should play tournaments with players who are better than you are...

Hasn't it already been pointed out that you will only play maybe one round with those that are better than you? After that you will be playing with people that suck as much as you do. How is that learning? It would seem to me that if I were going to play the majority of the tournament with players of my own skill level, why not do so in a division I would have a chance at doing better in? If I want to see what better players do then why not just join the gallery?

[TYVEK]

Originally Posted by jevon

Hasn't it already been pointed out that you will only play maybe one round with those that are better than you? After that you will be playing with people that suck as much as you do. How is that learning? It would seem to me that if I were going to play the majority of the tournament with players of my own skill level, why not do so in a division I would have a chance at doing better in? If I want to see what better players do then why not just join the gallery?

its really not true that you will only get one round with people better than you. i have had tournaments that i have played with other pro cards the whole tournament, i have also had tournaments where i am playing with some adv guys.

and just following the pros in the gallery is TOTALLY different than playing with them in a group. while playing in the group, you see things that you just dont see from the gallery, and there is interaction between players in the group that the gallery doesnt have with the players.

["Over the Hill" Bob]

Originally Posted by jevon

Hasn't it already been pointed out that you will only play maybe one round with those that are better than you? After that you will be playing with people that suck as much as you do. How is that learning? It would seem to me that if I were going to play the majority of the tournament with players of my own skill level, why not do so in a division I would have a chance at doing better in? If I want to see what better players do then why not just join the gallery?

^^^^^^^^^^

What Jevon said!

Bob

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Scott

I just don't think the time to do it is at a tournament. Practice with someone better. Learn new tricks. Develop them. Then take them to a tournament and kick ass (among players of your level). When you start beating them consisitently it will be obvious when it is time to move up.

The thing is, you practice with someone better and you do not get the valuable tournament experience you are looking for. We are talking about being a better tournament player here. Do not practice new things in the tournament but observe and take mental notes for things you want to practice in your casual rounds and practice days.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by jevon

Hasn't it already been pointed out that you will only play maybe one round with those that are better than you? After that you will be playing with people that suck as much as you do.

MAYBE this is the case. Many times, however, you will still be playing with people better than you if you have moved up to a high enough level. Am I suggesting Novice and Rec play pro? No. They can get some experience playing Intermediate or Advanced that they do not currently have.

How is that learning? It would seem to me that if I were going to play the majority of the tournament with players of my own skill level, why not do so in a division I would have a chance at doing better in? If I want to see what better players do then why not just join the gallery?

Because as a part of the gallery, you are not always privy to the banter and the interaction that goes on on the card. As part of the gallery, you do not get the instant feedback from the players on shots you throw.

[CarlitosBonitos]

I have been playing for 5 years now and I played my first tournment 3 years ago (Willamette Open) I left the tournament pissed off, because I played poorly and wound up with some real douchey characters that cursed and talked and threw out of turn, etc. That was my first tournament in Intermediate and my last. I moved up to Advanced with a sub 900 rating, and I am yet to take last place, I have not come close to the top card, but I am having a blast. To the point about if you suck you will play with others that suck by the end of the tourney... that is not true if you suck in a division above your rating... then you will likely be playing with kick ass golfers who happened to have a bad round, and it helps me stay focused on forgetting the past and moving forward.

I had a baby this year, so I had only played in one rated tourney prior to the last ratings update, which happened to be the day after my sisters wedding in which I played like crap due to a huge hangover. Anyways my rating may be 904, but I can compete within the advanced division and almost surely have a great weekend.

Let people play where they like, if there wasnt some truth to the fact that the intermediate division is completly lame and the frustrating characters that it attracts; then why is every one moving up? My answer is to get away from the flamers.

Of course I should point out I am generalizing, not every intermediate golfer is a douche or flamer, but a majority I would say are.

[snap7times]

Originally Posted by TYVEK

its really not true that you will only get one round with people better than you. i have had tournaments that i have played with other pro cards the whole tournament, i have also had tournaments where i am playing with some adv guys.

and just following the pros in the gallery is TOTALLY different than playing with them in a group. while playing in the group, you see things that you just dont see from the gallery, and there is interaction between players in the group that the gallery doesnt have with the players.

uhhhh... I dunno which tournaments you have played in, but a tournament where they actually pair you up with other divisions during the course of the tournament? WTH, that is bogus, you play with the division you signed up for period, so ofc duh, you would play with "pros" the whole tournament, but if 10 other sub900 players are in the division as well, you are really playing with those who you should be playing with in a lower and more appropriate division right?

I'm playing intermediate, guess i'm a douche bag... Carlitos, meet me on tee 1, let's see who's a douche and a flamer

[Scott]

Originally Posted by CarlitosBonitos

I have been playing for 5 years now and I played my first tournment 3 years ago (Willamette Open) I left the tournament pissed off, because I played poorly and wound up with some real douchey characters that cursed and talked and threw out of turn, etc. That was my first tournament in Intermediate and my last. I moved up to Advanced with a sub 900 rating, and I am yet to take last place, I have not come close to the top card, but I am having a blast. To the point about if you suck you will play with others that suck by the end of the tourney... that is not true if you suck in a division above your rating... then you will likely be playing with kick ass golfers who happened to have a bad round, and it helps me stay focused on forgetting the past and moving forward.

I had a baby this year, so I had only played in one rated tourney prior to the last ratings update, which happened to be the day after my sisters wedding in which I played like crap due to a huge hangover. Anyways my rating may be 904, but I can compete within the advanced division and almost surely have a great weekend.

Let people play where they like, if there wasnt some truth to the fact that the intermediate division is completly lame and the frustrating characters that it attracts; then why is every one moving up? My answer is to get away from the flamers.

Of course I should point out I am generalizing, not every intermediate golfer is a douche or flamer, but a majority I would say are.

You always play advanced? Wasn't that you on my card in the Intermediate division at Wortman earlier this year? If so, which one was I: the douche or the flamer?

[TYVEK]

Originally Posted by snap7times

uhhhh... I dunno which tournaments you have played in, but a tournament where they actually pair you up with other divisions during the course of the tournament? WTH, that is bogus, you play with the division you signed up for period, so ofc duh, you would play with "pros" the whole tournament, but if 10 other sub900 players are in the division as well, you are really playing with those who you should be playing with in a lower and more appropriate division right?

Well, welcome to washington disc golf. even though the Rule book says that there is not supposed to be any intermixing of divisions, the TD's up here seem to think it is ok to do. I dont really like it when it happens, but it doesnt make that much of a difference to me. i would rather put my energy into try to improve my performance instead of complaining to the TD.

and there usually isnt anybody even close to my rating in the tournaments i play in, so just about everybody in the pro division is better than i am.

see my signature "team last place" i have embraced it.

[olydiscgolf]

With out limiting the number of entries per division, there is no way to not have mixed cards. Unless of course every division just happens to be divisable by 4 or 5 depending on group size. I beleive the rules say you should "try" not to mix divisions, but sometimes you have to.

[Tim]

Originally Posted by olydiscgolf

With out limiting the number of entries per division, there is no way to not have mixed cards. Unless of course every division just happens to be divisable by 4 or 5 depending on group size. I beleive the rules say you should "try" not to mix divisions, but sometimes you have to.

Exactly. Thanks for the explanation, Chris. If divisions have to be mixed, TDs will usually try to at least keep the levels together, i.e. Open with Open Masters. But, that's just not the way it always works out, sometimes there has to be a mix and match, and you try to at least keep the level of experience together.

[Flatroc]

Originally Posted by Sam

Because as a part of the gallery, you are not always privy to the banter and the interaction that goes on on the card. As part of the gallery, you do not get the instant feedback from the players on shots you throw.

Last July I had the pleasure to observe and listen to the best golfers in the world!

I was at the First Class Challenge, a 3 day, 5 course NT event in Des Moines.
Once there was a lead card I was with them for the next 4 rounds (before the galleries started appearing), including an all day caddy for an ex world champ.
Leviska, Feldberg, Jenkins, Orum and Climo were a few of the fellers that I got to hang out with.
I've only been playing disc golf for 20 years so I knew there was still lots I could learn and these fellers showed some stuff.
Listening to talk of angles, lines, discs, arm speeds has greatly influenced me.
Is it going to make me better?
Not sure but at least I'll know better.

Ratings will probably, more than likely, eventually work to their fullest.
I still feel that we should know what division we should play in regardless of what numbers are next to our names.
We only need to have integrity and be true to ourselves.