You make the call

[all2common]

Here's the scenario:

Player throws drive into the schule. Player's second shot is lost. Player throws tantrum because nobody found his disc. (3 minutes was declared to begin and was timed accurately.) Player goes back to where he threw his second shot to throw again - there are now 3 or 4 cards backed up on the hole due to the length of the tantrum.

Now the player is shooting for four. Player throws the same shot, except worse, and that one is not found. Player goes to look for his 1st lost disc while everybody searches for his second lost disc. Different player, from a different card, notes to the TD that there are 4 cards waiting to play the hole.

Player now heads back to his original lie, which is the rule, and is now shooting for six. TD pulls the player from the schule and gives the player a "drop" near the basket and tells him he's shooting for six from there. Player misses the putt - the "drop" was 20-30 ft. from the pin - and takes a seven.

What should have happened given the tantrum, length of tantrum creating an enormous back-up and the rules regarding properly playing a hole?

[Sam]

For the tantrum, player should have received a warning from the TD and told that the next violation would result in a stroke as would all subsequent violations. If it continued to get out of hand, the TD had the option of DQing the player.

For the strokes and the backup, I would have rather seen the player have to go back to throw his 6th stroke from his previous lie. This would be in line with the rules and would have been fair to the other players in the field. As it is, he got a huge break and I believe it was his only mistake of the round.

Off of the point, the player did go to the TD after the event and apologize. Not saying that changes anything but I was glad to be able to witness that part - as payback for having to watch the tantrum.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by all2common

Here's the scenario:

Player throws drive into the schule. Player's second shot is lost. Player throws tantrum because nobody found his disc. (3 minutes was declared to begin and was timed accurately.) Player goes back to where he threw his second shot to throw again - there are now 3 or 4 cards backed up on the hole due to the length of the tantrum.

Now the player is shooting for four. Player throws the same shot, except worse, and that one is not found. Player goes to look for his 1st lost disc while everybody searches for his second lost disc. Different player, from a different card, notes to the TD that there are 4 cards waiting to play the hole.

Player now heads back to his original lie, which is the rule, and is now shooting for six. TD pulls the player from the schule and gives the player a "drop" near the basket and tells him he's shooting for six from there. Player misses the putt - the "drop" was 20-30 ft. from the pin - and takes a seven.

What should have happened given the tantrum, length of tantrum creating an enormous back-up and the rules regarding properly playing a hole?

It looks like there are several oppportunities to conuslt to the rulebook here. Let's start with the "tantrum". 801.01 B:

B. Players should take care not to produce any distracting
noises or any potential visual distractions for other players who are
throwing. Examples of discourteous actions are: shouting, cursing,
freestyling, slapping course equipment, throwing out of turn, throwing
or kicking golf bags, throwing minis, and advancing on the fairway
beyond the away player. Shouting at an appropriate time to warn someone
in danger of being struck by a disc is not a violation of courtesy.

Depending on the tantrum, the player could have been given a warning and then stroked for subsequent outbursts.

801.02 indicates that an official can allow groups to play through while a dispute is being worked out.

The drop zone should not have been used unless it was declared before the start of tournament play.

My best guess based upon the information you have provided is that the TD should have allowed the other groups to play through. The player then should have thrown his 6th shot from the original lie. A warning should have been given for the tantrum and a penalty stoke (or strokes) added if it persisted.


Were you in the group or the backup?

[all2common]

In the group. I felt bad for the TD because the whole situation created undue pressure on him to make a call.

[LJ Jubner]

I personally don't think the other groups should have played through. But I do know the player would have been stroked for each of these as separate instances or rule violations. Now what kind of a converstaion he had with those 3-4 group in the back up at lunch is an entirely different story.

A. His tantrum His outburst did not need a warning. Swearing is a warning, A tantrum is a stroke
B. Looking for a disc that had already been abandoned while neglecting the disc in play

[Flash]

Did the outcome of the incident affect the final payout and would 2-3 strokes have affected it more? What was the location of the lost disc like, was it a ravine or thick blackberry bushes? Was there any poison oak, sumac or stinging nettles that the TD could provided relief from?

If a drop zone was not specified before the round, what was the grounds for using the drop zone after the incident? After two lost discs from that location or two lost disc on the hole?

I would have to say that if there is that much trouble on the hole that an individual could lose two disc, a drop zone should have been identified before the tournament began. I am sure the TD would have loved to have had one but it appears that this type of trouble was not expected. Did anyone in the group offer to spot on the hole or were there spotters on the hole as designated by the TD? Did anyone from the group offer to spot after the first lost disc?

This is why we need to be more diligent with the rules. The Start Time for looking needs to be announced to the group and when it is up that also needs to be announced to the group. If the individual complains then a courtesy warning needs to be announced. If further banter continues strokes need to be assessed. I would put as much blame on the group as the TD in this case, for the lost discs or spotting of the lost discs. I don't believe the best move would be to let the groups play through after the TD has arrived on the scene, they were not waiting for a ruling but for a babysitter from the sounds of the tantrum. Player should have played from his original lie and continued to do so with provisional throws until a disc comes to rest in the field of play and can be located by the group spotting on the hole. The group should be placed along the line of play to help spot until a thrown disc can be located. The player should adjust their throw to play a more conservative throw, if spotting can not be effective due to the shule or distance from the fairway the throws are landing, to ensure a safe and locatable throw. If the player would have unloaded their bag trying to tin cup the shot that is their blame and they could then have been disqualified if they did not have a disc to play.


ALSO: TD should make a note in their TD report to the PDGA about the situation; if anyone knows who the TD was that made the ruling and is reading this you should contact them and let them know or contact the State coordinator Mike Ruzica(Magilla on these forums) and have him contact the TD. If anyone was affected by this ruling and subsequent change of play on the hole please contact the TD directly and try to work it out, if that does not satisfy your request please contact Mike Ruzica the state coordinator and or the PDGA. Do not blow this up on the forums as it will never get handled here on the forums the way it should. It would be advisable to do this immediately, because it will be more difficult to handle once the final TD report is submitted

[all2common]

Did the outcome of the incident affect the final payout and would 2-3 strokes have affected it more? I believe so.What was the location of the lost disc like, was it a ravine or thick blackberry bushes? Was there any poison oak, sumac or stinging nettles that the TD could provided relief from? Dense forest with nettles and blackberry bushes.

If a drop zone was not specified before the round, what was the grounds for using the drop zone after the incident? After two lost discs from that location or two lost disc on the hole? Both discs were lost from that location.

Did anyone in the group offer to spot on the hole or were there spotters on the hole as designated by the TD? Did anyone from the group offer to spot after the first lost disc? There were two spotters and myself on the first throw, for a total of three. Didn't find the disc. There were two CARDS of spotters for the second throw...didn't find the disc. The route chosen was ill-advised at best.

The Start Time for looking needs to be announced to the group and when it is up that also needs to be announced to the group. This was done.


ALSO: TD should make a note in their TD report to the PDGA about the situation; if anyone knows who the TD was that made the ruling and is reading this you should contact them and let them know or contact the State coordinator Mike Ruzica(Magilla on these forums) and have him contact the TD. If anyone was affected by this ruling and subsequent change of play on the hole please contact the TD directly and try to work it out, if that does not satisfy your request please contact Mike Ruzica the state coordinator and or the PDGA. Do not blow this up on the forums as it will never get handled here on the forums the way it should. It would be advisable to do this immediately, because it will be more difficult to handle once the final TD report is submitted

The intent of the post was to figure out how the hole should have been scored, not to create more issues. That information would be helpful for future reference. For example: I read a thread on this forum awhile ago about the 3 minute rule and when/how that should be called, etc. I applied that information in this situation based on what I learned from that discussion.

[Tim]

Originally Posted by all2common

The route chosen was ill-advised at best.

That perhaps may be the most important lesson to be gleaned from all of this.

[Magilla]

Originally Posted by Flash

DidALSO: TD should make a note in their TD report to the PDGA about the situation; if anyone knows who the TD was that made the ruling and is reading this you should contact them and let them know or contact the State coordinator Mike Ruzica(Magilla on these forums) and have him contact the TD. If anyone was affected by this ruling and subsequent change of play on the hole please contact the TD directly and try to work it out, if that does not satisfy your request please contact Mike Ruzica the state coordinator and or the PDGA. Do not blow this up on the forums as it will never get handled here on the forums the way it should. It would be advisable to do this immediately, because it will be more difficult to handle once the final TD report is submitted

Hey..Thats "RuzicKa"....

But otherwise.....YEA...What he said....

[SMOKIN JOE]

that's too bad for the player and the people waiting, groups can not play through unless they were waiting for a ruling, what drop zone, unless it was reconized before the round i don't see how it was used, t.d.'s do have leeways on rules but i don't see it on this one, people waiting needed to wait longer so the hole could be played properly, waiting should be acceptable by now it happens almost every big tourmnament round, esecially with ghost groups

[snap7times]

I think a more pressing question would be... were they discraft or innova?

[Matt B.]

Dude should have been stroked several times and then booted.

[erp]

Sounds like the guy could've used a trip through a 4-card spanking machine...let the punishment fit the crime...

[Wes Hansen]

Started reading, then discovered not a hypothetical.

Sounds unfortunate for everyone involved, though mostly the player throwing the tantrum.

As far as rules, the toughest to decide is the play through, though that comes down to a TD decision. And it sounds like the TD was on the spot. It was only the On-the-spot "drop zone" that seems in error. Not in the rules, shouldn't have been used. Worse, it seems to have affected the outcome.

HOWEVER, ALL the pressure in the scenario lies on the TD. A myriad of rule interpretations to make on the spot, a player throwing a "tantrum," groups backing up, his/her peers looking on and whatever other tourney thoughts are banging around in the TD's head. Not really an ideal situation for the TD.

A note to the PDGA is probably in order as Flash recommended.

The best thing to come out of the situation is, hopefully, the player who threw the public "tantrum" learns a valuable lesson.

(The only place one should throw a tantrum is on this forum.)

[SMOKIN JOE]

the play through is easy, you can only play through if someone in the group has called for an official and are out of the way waiting for an official and have signaled to the next group to play through, the drop zone was real unfortunate:, if the t.d. did not set the group aside to hear what was up and allow the back up to play through, that also would have been unfortunate

[Dave Pittman]

I arrived at the search area for the first lost disc on 13 walking in from 14. The two spotters on the hole had it in the area of the upper walkout to 14 which is basically pin high and 40 to 50 feet left. I asked if the clock had been started. Yes it had been and it was up. I told the player his disc was lost and he had to throw from the previous lie. I knew he was mad but didn’t realize the extent of a tantrum as he proceeded back to the previous lie. I stayed on lower walkout to 14 with others to help spot the next throw. Part of the issue he said was, he had asked for another spotter from his group to help the other two on hole, but it didn’t happen. I want to mention that we did not have a spotter available for this hole. One of the FW1 women who was stung earlier in the round and had to withdraw was there with a friend spotting when this happened.
The second throw was absolutely launched heading over 14’s fairway and possibly out of the park. I think we all (10 at least) collectively said oh sh!t and then, well we’ve got three minutes. It was about this time I was told the back up was four groups. We didn’t find the second throw and I instructed the player to go back to his previous lie and throw again. Before he got to make the throw I called him off as I felt we had to clear the hole and get things moving. I went to the previous version of the lost disc rule but wasn’t going to use his second throw as that had just as great a chance of prolonging the ordeal. I had confidence in the ladies spotting of his original throw that was lost in the area of the upper walk out. The shule is some of the thickest on the course here and I picked a spot on the walkout where the ladies last saw the disc. Though you could see part of the basket from the spot I picked, the shot had a very small chance of being made.
I’ll stand by the decision I made in a tough situation and I will put it in the TD report. I should have taken the other three players in the group aside and explained how I made the decision, sorry about that.
The player cashed in the lower half and a couple of strokes would’ve changed payout by $5. A couple of players will receive a few less ratings points.

Thanks
David

["Over the Hill" Bob]

You did good Dave! In my opinion, and I'll argue it to anyone, is that the TD has the final say, even if at his/her discretion the rules are circumvented to allow the tournament to continue to run smoothly. This situation was handled as well as it could have been given the circumstances.

Bob

[Chuck Kennedy]

The player cashed in the lower half and a couple of strokes would’ve changed payout by $5. A couple of players will receive a few less ratings points.

Not sure what his round rating was for this round. But if it was more than 60 points below his rating, then he will not be included as a propagator for that official round rating calculation and his round will not have affected the rating of anyone else.

[Matt B.]

Originally Posted by Dave Pittman

I arrived at the search area for the first lost disc on 13 walking in from 14. The two spotters on the hole had it in the area of the upper walkout to 14 which is basically pin high and 40 to 50 feet left. I asked if the clock had been started. Yes it had been and it was up. I told the player his disc was lost and he had to throw from the previous lie. I knew he was mad but didn’t realize the extent of a tantrum as he proceeded back to the previous lie. I stayed on lower walkout to 14 with others to help spot the next throw. Part of the issue he said was, he had asked for another spotter from his group to help the other two on hole, but it didn’t happen. I want to mention that we did not have a spotter available for this hole. One of the FW1 women who was stung earlier in the round and had to withdraw was there with a friend spotting when this happened.
The second throw was absolutely launched heading over 14’s fairway and possibly out of the park. I think we all (10 at least) collectively said oh sh!t and then, well we’ve got three minutes. It was about this time I was told the back up was four groups. We didn’t find the second throw and I instructed the player to go back to his previous lie and throw again. Before he got to make the throw I called him off as I felt we had to clear the hole and get things moving. I went to the previous version of the lost disc rule but wasn’t going to use his second throw as that had just as great a chance of prolonging the ordeal. I had confidence in the ladies spotting of his original throw that was lost in the area of the upper walk out. The shule is some of the thickest on the course here and I picked a spot on the walkout where the ladies last saw the disc. Though you could see part of the basket from the spot I picked, the shot had a very small chance of being made.
I’ll stand by the decision I made in a tough situation and I will put it in the TD report. I should have taken the other three players in the group aside and explained how I made the decision, sorry about that.
The player cashed in the lower half and a couple of strokes would’ve changed payout by $5. A couple of players will receive a few less ratings points.

Thanks
David

Sounds like you handled it very well to me Dave! Thanks for all the hard work this past weekend.

[LJ Jubner]

Dave the only problem and is very minor is the speed of play for the course. ie letting other groups through. It does not matter how many groups are waiting or how long they waited, As a courtesy to all who signed up each of us has the responsibility to maintain our cool, either witnessing or waiting. I always a say "I did not write the rules. I just get to enforce them as best I can. This is not an exact science but it seems to happen more often Jordy at RCO come to mind.