Lost disc rule question

[Chuck Kennedy]

8ppp. The player never holed out and misplayed the course (801.04D).
1 Tee shot
2 Second throw
3 Lost penalty
4 Third throw
5 Practice throw from where disc was found
6 Practice throw (putt)
7-8 Two throw penalty for not holing out

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Chuck Kennedy

8ppp. The player never holed out and misplayed the course (801.04D).
1 Tee shot
2 Second throw
3 Lost penalty
4 Third throw
5 Practice throw from where disc was found
6 Practice throw (putt)
7-8 Two throw penalty for not holing out

The player did in fact hole out. After holing out from the lost disc, he holed out from his other (correct) lie as well (provisional). The two shots he took to hole out should not count because they were provisional. This results in:

1. Tee shot
2. Second throw
3. Lost penalty
4. Third throw
5. Fourth throw
6. Putt

Does that sound right?

[Chuck Kennedy]

There was no provisional called before the alternate route was played.
1 Tee shot
2 Second throw
3 Lost penalty
4 Third throw
5 Putt out (might have been last toss?)
6 Practice throw from lost disc position
7 Practice throw putting out that shot

7p with no 2-throw misplay penalty

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Chuck Kennedy

There was no provisional called before the alternate route was played.
1 Tee shot
2 Second throw
3 Lost penalty
4 Third throw
5 Putt out (might have been last toss?)
6 Practice throw from lost disc position
7 Practice throw putting out that shot

7p with no 2-throw misplay penalty

In that case we do end up with an 8p because after the third throw it took two more throws to hole out (and additional approach and a putt).

Wow.

[Greg_R]

Another problem is when the disc is declared 'lost', the player is walking back to the previous lie and someone finds the disc. I've had numerous occasions where the player insists that they should play from the now 'found' disc (sometimes with a penalty, sometimes without). When reading comprehension fails I'll have them throw a provisional and let the TD sort it out (rather than getting into a heated discussion mid-round).

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Greg_R

Another problem is when the disc is declared 'lost', the player is walking back to the previous lie and someone finds the disc. I've had numerous occasions where the player insists that they should play from the now 'found' disc (sometimes with a penalty, sometimes without). When reading comprehension fails I'll have them throw a provisional and let the TD sort it out (rather than getting into a heated discussion mid-round).

That's basically what happened here, only the player actually threw before the disc was found.

Here's the funny part: This disc was actually found by my caddy.
After the round I jokingly slapped him upside the head and said, "What the hell were you thinking!"

[Chuck Kennedy]

There's no requirement that someone in the group have a watch or timer to be able to say at least 3 minutes is up on a search. If the group agrees it's been 3 minutes, that's good enough. If the player disagrees, their only proof is to provide a watch or timer, which of course they didn't carry.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Chuck Kennedy

There's no requirement that someone in the group have a watch or timer to be able to say at least 3 minutes is up on a search. If the group agrees it's been 3 minutes, that's good enough. If the player disagrees, their only proof is to provide a watch or timer, which of course they didn't carry.

Really?

That seems to solidify the case. Because the group did reach concensus that 3 minutes had been reached, at which time the player walked back to his disc.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Groups make rulings all the time, whether right or wrong, without actually having a rulebook in hand or make CTP calls without a tape.

[Flash]

Originally Posted by Chuck Kennedy

There's no requirement that someone in the group have a watch or timer to be able to say at least 3 minutes is up on a search. If the group agrees it's been 3 minutes, that's good enough. If the player disagrees, their only proof is to provide a watch or timer, which of course they didn't carry.

That sounds like an Ad Hoc argument to me!
************
per the rules:
803.11 Lost Disc

A. A disc shall be declared lost if the player cannot locate it within three minutes after arriving at the spot where it was last seen by the group or an official. Two players or an official must note when the timing of three minutes begins. All players of the group must, upon request, assist in searching for
the disc for the full three minutes before the disc is declared lost. The disc is considered lost immediately upon the expiration of the three minute time limit
*************
I would argue that in order to note the start of the time, a time piece might be needed.

If a time piece is not available, best bet is to call out we are starting to look so that it is clear that everyone in the group is looking for a specific disc. Once it is obvious that 3 minutes has elapsed then call it and move on.

At the players meeting the day before, the TD did mention that if you throw your disc and it lands in the blackberry bushes on the right side of the fairway to throw a provisional and make sure it stays in the fairway before you leave the tee box. Was this statement made on Sunday as well?

[Chuck Kennedy]

Take a look at the fairness rule 803.01F. Presuming a timepiece is not available, then some other means must be used (counting, internal clocks, changing sun position) and the group can make that determination. Per the rules, the start of such ad hoc timing method does need to be noted.

Side note: Since it seems like discs are many times found right after the time limit, I'm prone to call "time" early so the disc can be found faster...

[TreeLove]

One thing that helps resolve these situations is if players "man up" and take their lumps. As a player, you know when you're in the wrong. Just act on your conscience, and you will make the right move. Playing from a disc that has been declared lost, arguing that a grass blade might be under your asphalt-surrounded disc, foot faulting in the schule when no one can see, arguing about 3 minutes (or 30 seconds) when it's obvious it has passed, all these are less than honorable things to do - it's cheating. Golf is all about integrity and honesty, if everyone adhered to those principles, most of these debates would never occur. Hell, when I have a lost disc, I start a timer on myself! It is not my intent to try to get more than the 3 minutes I deserve.

Example: At the RCO on Sunday, After driving Trojan hole 8 short into the schule, then short off a tree, then OB into the canal, then approach, and putt, I mistakenly reported my score as a 5p. A few holes later I realized I had a 6p. What do I do? The answer is obvious: report the correct score, and have the scorecard changed to reflect the correct score, 6p. Which is what I did, of course.

[Sausage Fingers]

The one thing that makes this a tougher than usual call is the fact that 2 discs were lost and being looked for at the same time. It is really hard to use the 'internal timer' when the first disc is found and that player throws his next shot before the 2nd disc is either found or declared lost.

This all happened on hole 5 and the group came around to where I was watching the play from tee pad 9. My advice to the card in deciding the ruling for themselves (I was already bitter about a ruling on the previous day) was "Did the second player get the FULL 3 minutes of everybody looking for his disc or was he shorted by the fact that the first player found his disc and took his next shot?" Two of the three players didn't think that he did. Not being there to time it made me not want to make the call without the input of the group. The really nice thing that I appreciated was that since we were next to one of the bathrooms the player in question went to use the facilities to allow the rest of the group to vote without him present.

On Saturday I was spotting on the new longer hole 13 pin placement that was surrounded by very tall grass. Each time that we looked for a disc I noted on my watch when the 3 minutes started (even though I started looking before the groups usually made their way up the fairway). I only had to call the 3 minutes twice all day.

And yes Flash, I DID mention the shule on hole 5 on Sunday and the suggestion that ANY shot into those bushes be immediately followed by a provisional shot to save time in case the disc was lost.

It is Treelove's post that I MOST agree with however.

Any idea that the score should've been other than a 4 or a 6p is insane. A player should always play a provisional throw if the ruling is in question. And as long as you play both shots all the way out you shouldn't be penalized for the shots that are determined to be the ones NOT used for the hole score.

My TD tenure may be coming to an end very soon...

[LJ Jubner]

Remember This ain't therapy It's Gambling

I always wear a watch. Keep track of when all start looking. Normally I will suggest (sometimes strongly) that we look for one disc at a time. Give the three min and then go forward repeating the process for the other disc. In ball golf when your time to look is up you have abandoned the shot and need to play on. I have noticed that sometimes players half hearted look for a competitors disc. But when it's their disc it's a whole other kettle of fish. I guess it comes down to All players need to be officials and have the book with them at all times. We manage to give them cards for each round Why not a rule book for each group! I can tell you When something like this happens I like to find three other officials and have them pow wow with the players. Make some sort of decision and I as TD accept their ruling. God knows I have enought to do without getting bogged down by a land war in Asia


Jordy I am saddend by your last statement. Whom ever read you the riot act should be ripped for his dis-courteous behaviour towards you. If It had been me I would have pulled the player aside and ripped him a new one. If the player had continued I would have given them their money back and told them SEE YA!!! Just because someone decides to be a TD does not give the rest of us the right to be abusive towards them.

And If I were the the one who acted out I would personally apologize to everyone at the event

[SMOKIN JOE]

803.11 states that once arriving at the point of the lost disc, two people of the group or an official must start the time, upon request all members of the group must help in the search, so there is the process on which to start the clock, the gray area is that people usually don't comment on when the looking begins or time it accuratly, so if your time is was never started and your disc is not lost then are in violation of playing in a timely manner plus the lost disc when you don't find it. I agree that things like watches, rule books, rolled up meter markers should have to be present in every group to determine proper play or wait for an official to figure it out

[Greg_R]

Jub, your statement about including rule books makes sense.... with the major assumption that the average disc golfer can read and understand the rule book. This thread alone is proof that rules understanding is not a forte among golfers (even with the rule book available for free online).

A player should always play a provisional throw if the ruling is in question. And as long as you play both shots all the way out you shouldn't be penalized for the shots that are determined to be the ones NOT used for the hole score.

Absolutely... As long as the sequence of throws is CALLED a provisional, NOT a "I don't like my lie so I'll just play the hole out from my lost disc location" sequence of throws. Throwing from a new lie and then after the fact calling it a provisional to cover ones butt does not count (not sure if it happened this way or not, I was not there).

My TD tenure may be coming to an end very soon...

There is not a lot of difference between TDing an event and running a kindergarten. Hope you stick with it...

[Sausage Fingers]

Originally Posted by Greg_R

Absolutely... As long as the sequence of throws is CALLED a provisional, NOT a "I don't like my lie so I'll just play the hole out from my lost disc location" sequence of throws. Throwing from a new lie and then after the fact calling it a provisional to cover ones butt does not count (not sure if it happened this way or not, I was not there).

Does it really require a statement to the fact? How loud does that statement have to be? Do you have to get the attention of every player on your card? What if the word 'provisional' escapes you during a senior moment?

[Flash]

Originally Posted by Sausage Fingers

Does it really require a statement to the fact? How loud does that statement have to be? Do you have to get the attention of every player on your card? What if the word 'provisional' escapes you during a senior moment?

Senior moment I thought this was kindergarten!

[Kenny B]

My two cents to add to this discussion is that when a player walks back to the teepad to re-tee, I immediately leave the area being searched, pick up my bag and find a good place to spot the next shot. I don't continue looking for the disk.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Kenny B

My two cents to add to this discussion is that when a player walks back to the teepad to re-tee, I immediately leave the area being searched, pick up my bag and find a good place to spot the next shot. I don't continue looking for the disk.

Which is exactly what I did in this case. Unfortunately, my caddy decided to kill the time by trying to retrieve another disc out of the blackberrry bushes (not one of ours). In doing so, he found the disc.