Lost disc rule question

[Scott]

Hole five at Trojan. Two players go into the rough on the right on their second shot. All four players and one spectator go into the rough to look for both discs. Nobody declared a start to the three minute timer and time was never kept. After a few minutes, player A finds his disc and immediately plays it. The group comes to a concensus that more than three minutes have elapsed so player B declares that his disc is lost and walks back to his previous lie and throws again. The spectator and other two players continue to look while he is walking back to his previous lie. After player B throws his lost disc is found. He then plays the lost disc and putts out for a score of four on that hole. At this point, the rules discussion ensued. There were some in the group that believed he should take the penalty for the lost disc and take his second shot from the previous lie. Since no concensus was reached, it was decided that his second shot should be a provisional (it was not declared as such before he threw it). He finished the hole from the provisional lie and finished with a 6P.

So what is the correct score for this hole? A 4 or 6P?

[Bullseye]

Originally Posted by Scott

Hole five at Trojan. Two players go into the rough on the right on their second shot. All four players and one spectator go into the rough to look for both discs. Nobody declared a start to the three minute timer and time was never kept. After a few minutes, player A finds his disc and immediately plays it. The group comes to a concensus that more than three minutes have elapsed so player B declares that his disc is lost and walks back to his previous lie and throws again. The spectator and other two players continue to look while he is walking back to his previous lie. After player B throws his lost disc is found. He then plays the lost disc and putts out for a score of four on that hole. At this point, the rules discussion ensued. There were some in the group that believed he should take the penalty for the lost disc and take his second shot from the previous lie. Since no concensus was reached, it was decided that his second shot should be a provisional (it was not declared as such before he threw it). He finished the hole from the provisional lie and finished with a 6P.

So what is the correct score for this hole? A 4 or 6P?

The correct score is 6P.

As soon as the group declares the first disc lost, then that disc is dead and cannot be played from.

Occasionally you will see people taking advantage of a slight gray area that arises when the player who lost the disc starts walking back to re-tee without actually declaring the first disc lost. If the group continues looking for his disc and finds it before he throws, then he can still play from the first disc. Of course that only works if the group never declared the disc lost.

[Leftybagger]

6P... Disc was declared lost after 3 minutes ( or was called 3 minutes ). At that point even though it was found, it is still lost for that shot... That is my interpretation of it. What did the TD decide?

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Leftybagger

6P... Disc was declared lost after 3 minutes ( or was called 3 minutes ). At that point even though it was found, it is still lost for that shot... That is my interpretation of it. What did the TD decide?

The TD left it for the group to decide. The group voted 2-1 to give player B a 4 (Player B abstained from the voting for obvious reasons).

[Sam]

Should have been a 6p. As he didn't claim provisional, at the very least he should have received a 5 adding a stroke as he got to throw a practice shot.

[Leftybagger]

Originally Posted by Scott

The TD left it for the group to decide. The group voted 2-1 to give player B a 4 (Player B abstained from the voting for obvious reasons).

Left it for the group to decide? That is why you play it both ways, so an Official ( which the TD must be ) may make the decision... Hopefully he didn't beat you by 2 strokes!!

[Magilla]

First of all......3 minutes does not start UNTIL thew group STARTS time.
A player who's disc may be lost can look all day IF 3 minutes has not been called. NO ONE can say "thats been about 3 minutes" and just declare it lost and force a re-tee. ALSO...3 minutes are taken for EACH DISC THAT IS LOST.
Once a disc is found THEN another 3 mins is allowed to find the other disc.

ONCE a disc is declared lost, that disc CAN NOT be played, even if found at a later time. ALL subsequent throws taken from the lie of the lost disc would be considered practice throws. IF the player DID NOT finish playing the 2nd drive (after lost disc was declaired) then that player did not complete the hole.

2 stroke penalty PLUS the throws that were taken....from BOTH lies.

[Leftybagger]

Originally Posted by Magilla

First of all......3 minutes does not start UNTIL thew group STARTS time.
A player who's disc may be lost can look all day IF 3 minutes has not been called. NO ONE can say "thats been about 3 minutes" and just declare it lost and force a re-tee. ALSO...3 minutes are taken for EACH DISC THAT IS LOST.
Once a disc is found THEN another 3 mins is allowed to find the other disc.

ONCE a disc is declared lost, that disc CAN NOT be played, even if found at a later time. ALL subsequent throws taken from the lie of the lost disc would be considered practice throws. IF the player DID NOT finish playing the 2nd drive (after lost disc was declaired) then that player did not complete the hole.

2 stroke penalty PLUS the throws that were taken....from BOTH lies.

Not completing the hole is also subject to DQ if the TD so chooses. It is either the 2 stroke penalty or a DQ...

[Tim]

There was a similar situation at the Steilly Open last year. Dude on our card couldn't find his disc, we all looked, and eventually the card behind us caught up. They came over to help, looked around, and someone said that it's probably been over 3 minutes. Like 95% of the times when looking for a lost disc, nobody had officially called the 3 minutes starting or had a watch IIRC, so nobody could say for sure that 3 minutes had elapsed. Several of us agreed that it'd been 3 minutes, but the player was still looking, we told him that time was up, and as he was walking back to retee, someone found his disc. He played his original lie and reteed as a provisional to take it up with the TD later. I believe it was the difference between a 3 and a 5p.

When he took it up with the TD afterward, the TD ruled in his favor, giving him the 3 since nobody had been officially keeping time.

In my opinion, this is a rule that needs to be changed. The old rule on lost discs was group consensus on where it was last seen, mark the lie, throw from there, and take a 1 stroke penalty. Now the rule is that you must return to your previous lie and take a 1 stroke penalty on top of that--theoretically to save on time and disputes on where the disc was last seen. Thing is though, most discs that are lost are lost on drives, so then if a player has to retee, they have to walk all the way back to the tee, which ends up taking more time, and often results in a 2 stroke swing for the player--in addition to losing a disc.

The three minute timer thing is still an issue, and I don't have any good suggestion for an alternative. Though, I'd be willing to bet that you would have less hangups if the player thought he'd only be taking a 1 stroke penalty instead of the very likely outcome of (at least) 2. I think the old rule was much better in this case.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Leftybagger

Left it for the group to decide? That is why you play it both ways, so an Official ( which the TD must be ) may make the decision...

That's what I thought, but I was outvoted.

Originally Posted by Leftybagger

Hopefully he didn't beat you by 2 strokes!!

He didn't, but at that point in the round it was still very close.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Leftybagger

Not completing the hole is also subject to DQ if the TD so chooses. It is either the 2 stroke penalty or a DQ...

He did finish the hole - twice. Once from the "lost disc" and once from the fairway. That's how he ended up with two possible scores.

[Leftybagger]

Originally Posted by Scott

He did finish the hole - twice. Once from the "lost disc" and once from the fairway. That's how he ended up with two possible scores.

That was in response to the not finishing the hole scenario...

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Tim

There was a similar situation at the Steilly Open last year. Dude on our card couldn't find his disc, we all looked, and eventually the card behind us caught up. They came over to help, looked around, and someone said that it's probably been over 3 minutes. Like 95% of the times when looking for a lost disc, nobody had officially called the 3 minutes starting or had a watch IIRC, so nobody could say for sure that 3 minutes had elapsed. Several of us agreed that it'd been 3 minutes, but the player was still looking, we told him that time was up, and as he was walking back to retee, someone found his disc. He played his original lie and reteed as a provisional to take it up with the TD later. I believe it was the difference between a 3 and a 5p.

When he took it up with the TD afterward, the TD ruled in his favor, giving him the 3 since nobody had been officially keeping time.

In my opinion, this is a rule that needs to be changed. The old rule on lost discs was group consensus on where it was last seen, mark the lie, throw from there, and take a 1 stroke penalty. Now the rule is that you must return to your previous lie and take a 1 stroke penalty on top of that--theoretically to save on time and disputes on where the disc was last seen. Thing is though, most discs that are lost are lost on drives, so then if a player has to retee, they have to walk all the way back to the tee, which ends up taking more time, and often results in a 2 stroke swing for the player--in addition to losing a disc.

The three minute timer thing is still an issue, and I don't have any good suggestion for an alternative. Though, I'd be willing to bet that you would have less hangups if the player thought he'd only be taking a 1 stroke penalty instead of the very likely outcome of (at least) 2.

The lesson I learned from this is to start carrying a stopwatch with me in the future.

The reason for the new rule is because trying to figure out where the disc was last seen always ended up being pretty vague.

Our TD had an excellent suggestion. Both players should have taken provisional shots as soon as they saw their shots go into the schule since, on that particular hole, it is a very reasonable expectation that they would not be found.

[Tim]

Originally Posted by Scott

The reason for the new rule is because trying to figure out where the disc was last seen always ended up being pretty vague.

True, but I'd argue that you can get a decent estimation, and since the guy is taking a penalty stroke for it already, it isn't that crucial to be exact.

[Magilla]

Originally Posted by Scott

He did finish the hole - twice. Once from the "lost disc" and once from the fairway. That's how he ended up with two possible scores.

That changes things......

It 'could' have gone this way.............

Player cant find disc......3 minutes is never "officailly" called, but group decides that 3 mins has elapsed...Player walks back to tee (should have declaired provisional at this point) and re-tees. THEN Disc is found and player states that since 3 mins was never "officially" called that he will play that disc and the provisional goes away. Player finishes out the hole and takes score of number of throws NOT counting the provisional.

It "should" have gone this way..........

Player throws disc, other player throws disc...2 discs are possibly lost.
2 players in the group declare the start of time.......during that time 1 disc is found......3 mins starts AGAIN to search for the 2nd disc.......ALL players continue to search...player 1 DOES NOT play yet.
If after 3 mins is over and no disc is found THEN the disc is declared lost and the player returns to previous lie to re-throw with a 1 stroke penalty. Once a disc is declaired lost a player MAY NOT play from that spot even if found after 3 mins is up.

If there is a question on a ruling that cant not be decided by the group OR a near by official ALWAYS play a provisional and take it up with the TD after the round.
It seems that is what they did in this case....

Maybe the ruling was not the correct one....

[olydiscgolf]

I had a similar situation in Leavonworth @ Flippen Z. Final round on Sunday, 5 holes to go, Im tied for the lead. The Spotter from our group (who I'm tied with) misplaced my drive. After searching for way more than 3 min. I walked back to the tee box without saying anything out loud( I was screaming at that f-in spotter in my head though!). As I was teeing off (disc had left my hand, hadn't landed yet) my first drive is found. I played out my second drive with 2 penalty stroke's added to take a 6p and lose the tourney by 2 strokes.


The bottom line is, once a disc is declared lost, it is lost, and can't be played. The grey area is what is "declairing", in my case, it was making the turn and walking back to the pad. I know that a 3 min timer is supposed to be used, but never once in all the tourney's i've played has anyone ever used a time piece. It has always been a group consensus and way longer than 3 min.(actual time usually has something to do with the group behind mine and their proximity to us).

As far as provisionals go, It's hard to determin when to throw one, It seems that I've lost more disc's that should have been "in the middle of the fairway", and walk right up to pastic that is 3' deep in the "stuff".

Unless people start using stopwatches, this will always be a contraversial topic.

[JMan]

Well I can't understand why the TD would then throw it back to the group. The TDs are getting the big bucks (jk) to make calls in this exact situation. To throw it back to the group seems un-TD-like; you're the TD, make the call.

[Flash]

Until a rule book and time piece are required items during a sanctioned round we will always have these issues. It states several times in the rulebook about some specific time must elapse whether it be time to throw time to look or time to wait. I can't believe they are not required in the fact that to make a ruling you would need one or both in most cases.

Realistically, anyone can challenge any time based rule if a time piece was not used to make the ruling but if people carried time pieces I think people would be more disappointed because they would be shocked on how short 30 seconds is or how short 3 minutes is. There would probably be more discs declared lost and then found. Because of this I think common sense can set in and when the group has looked for 10 minutes without a time piece and declares the disc lost the individual is more willing to accept the group decision.

People may not know that it has been exactly 3 minutes but most people have the presence of mind to know that it clearly has been more than three minutes!

[Scott]

Originally Posted by olydiscgolf

The bottom line is, once a disc is declared lost, it is lost, and can't be played. The grey area is what is "declairing", in my case, it was making the turn and walking back to the pad.

I agree with this. In the case at Trojan, I don't think the player actually declared the disc was lost, but he never declared he was throwing a provisional, either. IMO, the act of going back to the previous lie and throwing (without declaring it a provisional throw) is the same as declaring your disc being lost.

[SMOKIN JOE]

6p, you also have the option to step aside let other groups pass untill an official can be located to make a ruling, did I read the t.d. was involved and did not make a ruling, what official made the ruling, as far as t.d.'s making the big bucks, I've ran 2 pdga events this year and the club has spent over 500.00 on them and the t.d. accepts no money for his efforts, my wife really sponsers our tournaments with her donations to buy everything we need,