Discmosis

[Sam]

Yes... but can you get better (bigger) at it hanging out with bigger... uh...

Never mind.

[jevon]

What are you talking about? I've been at the top of the advanced ranks for quite some time now. I would move up but I want to retain my Am status...

[Sam]

I, uh... never played in the amateur division for that.

[Chuck Kennedy]

How about some actual facts in this discussion or would that ruin it?

There's no evidence that players play better or worse in tournaments playing in groups with a higher or lower ratings average than themselves in terms of their actual round ratings. Certainly if reverse discmosis was real, then Climo would have been pulled down from the top long before winning all of those titles in a row. Not sure he has ever played in a group with a higher average rating than his since the early 90s.

There are more newer, lower rated players coming on the competition scene. It would only make sense that there are more examples of players improving than declining regardless of the reasons, and they are statistically more likely to be playing with higher rated players in their groups. So the correlation is going to be there, but claiming there's a cause and effect relationship is a stretch.

For players to get better, they need to learn new skills and practice. It would make sense that they can learn some new things from better players in a tournament or league in addition to casual rounds. But that new knowledge may mean nothing during the round itself, just the next time they play.

[Jeff Hemmerling]

Nicely put, Mr. Kennedy!

[thadeouspage]

Magic Johnson was very clear in stating that he felt playing against Larry Bird raised his play beyond the normal level of excellence he displayed. It's hard to say that Larry was better than Magic but he was the one player who matched his excellence and could push him to a greater performance.

It was more than just the intense competition, that was always present for the Lakers, it was the inspiration, the increased desire and the simple joy he got from trying to one-up his friend.

Of course none of us are Hall of Famers, but I think his comments are apropos to this discussion.

I played for two years with my girlfriend before I began to seek out other guys to play with. The pace of my improvement accelerated dramatically once I began to play with players that could inspire me to improve and show me what could be done with a disc. It wasn't overt instruction or increased practice as much as it was a change in mindset and an understanding of what is possible. In other words 'Discmosis.'

[Chuck Kennedy]

Of course none of us are Hall of Famers, but I think his comments are apropos to this discussion.

Ahem...

If Discmosis is described as a delayed effect from playing with better players, then Discmosis could be legit. But the process of actually playing with them is not the case. In the case of Bird playing Magic, our parallel would be playing a tougher course which probably helps, in fact probably forces our games to improve. Unlike basketball, we play against the course, not the other players. Bird playing against Magic was like he had to prepare to play the toughest course available at the time.

[NWDiscer]

Originally Posted by Chuck Kennedy

Ahem...

nicely said

[thadeouspage]

Unlike basketball, we play against the course, not the other players. Bird playing against Magic was like he had to prepare to play the toughest course available at the time.

Except that in my example Bird was not a difficult golf course he was a living breathing human being capable of having human interaction, communication and rapport with Magic. Butchering my example/observation is not an effective way to make your point.

[dooley]

I truly believe in a form of discmosis...I know my game improved as I watched better players and began to incorporate the areas of there game I liked into my own.I think you will always practice and play to your competition....and tourneys are a different game than any casual/doubles round.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Chuck Kennedy

If Discmosis is described as a delayed effect from playing with better players, then Discmosis could be legit.

Well, that's how I meant it, actually, though I did not coin the term. I certainly do not mean that if Ken Climo tees off and then I go next I am going to throw the same shot as him or better. I mean that I learn a lot more from playing with better players than I do with players I can and should beat. Developing what I have learned does my game far more benefit than going to a field and practicing the same thing I have been doing since I started playing.

[snap7times]

will somebody with a rating of 980 or better please move next door to me and play disc golf with me twice a week for three months so we can test this "High-pot-the-sis" out? I play with lower rated players about 90 percent of the time and you can see I have flat lined, I need me some "Disc-most-sis".

As far as the Ken Climo arguement goes, he did have discmosis until the game itself "peaked", the discs only go so far, putting can only get so good, and it becomes automatic instead of a thought process for those guys who do it long enough. Discmosis is more evident in players with lower ratings that try to build their ratings. Gosh, i typed that without my morning coffee, brb.

Ok, here is an example, after seeing the pros play a round on the west side on friday afternoon at BSF, I saw some nice lines, good strategy, and I applied it on Saturday morning, I blew two stupidddddd 60 foot approach shots to take easy 4's on 2 and 13, but still beat my PB by 3 strokes because I saw a few things and applied it. Then seeing McCabe slam chains with a BUZZZ on 2 made me realize, just gun the hole and get that 3, and it worked on Sunday..... Point is what.... if you watch an entire round with the pros, and then walk away without learning or seeing a few things and applying it; you are setting yourself up to fail...

[Scott]

This whole "Discmosis" thing is an argument for playing up. As the great Sam Gibson once said, "I learn a lot more from playing with better players than I do with players I can and should beat." That assumes that you are consistently finishing in the top of your current division. If not, then there are still players better from you that you will learn from and their lessons will be more easily applied because they are closer to your skill level.

The fact is, moving up to a higher division is the right thing to do for some players. But why do some folks seem to think, "If it works for me then it will work for anybody?"

Here are some very common statements and resulting replies from around the disc golf community:

Statement: "I had a pretty good weekend and cashed in my first tournament"
Response: "Bagger! Move up!"

S: "Nice! I just had my first top ten finish.
R: "Bagger! Move up!"

S: "I just signed up for my first PDGA tournament."
R: "Bagger! Move up!"

[Tim]

Hmm, maybe we're under different interpretations of the discussion here. I don't think necessarily playing up will lend itself to discmosis. I think more effectively, we're talking about in your average day-to-day casual rounds, if you play with people that are better than you, your own skills will improve. Just limiting it to tournaments won't be as effective, because in many cases, you may play your first round with some of the top dogs, but likely, in your second and third rounds, you'll be playing with guys in a similar skill level as your own.

Also, it seems that some of us view discmosis as more of an active, conscious learning process, i.e. studying better players' form, disc selection, routes, etc. and adapting your own game towards theirs. While that can certainly improve your game, discmosis to me, is a more subtle, subconscious phenomenon, where you find yourself more focused and in the groove, and end up playing at a level closer to better players.

[Sam]

I think it is some of both, Tim. There is definitely something to be said for playing up (or down) to the level of your competition.

[Tim]

Oh, for sure. I think a good example was our little epic battle at Fernburner last year. I think you were rated a good 50 points higher than me and we were back and forth within a stroke of each other for that whole second round. I knew we were close most of that time, but I never really was paying attention to just how close.

I'm just gonna tell myself that I was playing up to your level, not that you were playing down to mine.

[Sam]

For sure, Tim. Let's just say you were playing up to my level and we won't mention scores or anything like that.

No... I definitely think that you were playing up. If I recall correctly, we kind of ran away at the end with the next guy a few strokes back. Good times. Let's do it again this year.

["Over the Hill" Bob]

What's really funny is that Hagerty made up a word, gave it a meaning and WE are on the 3rd page, still argueing about discmosis.

Bob

[snap7times]

Originally Posted by Tim

Hmm, maybe we're under different interpretations of the discussion here. I don't think necessarily playing up will lend itself to discmosis. I think more effectively, we're talking about in your average day-to-day casual rounds, if you play with people that are better than you, your own skills will improve. Just limiting it to tournaments won't be as effective, because in many cases, you may play your first round with some of the top dogs, but likely, in your second and third rounds, you'll be playing with guys in a similar skill level as your own.

Also, it seems that some of us view discmosis as more of an active, conscious learning process, i.e. studying better players' form, disc selection, routes, etc. and adapting your own game towards theirs. While that can certainly improve your game, discmosis to me, is a more subtle, subconscious phenomenon, where you find yourself more focused and in the groove, and end up playing at a level closer to better players.

It's not so much as adapting to their game, it's implementing what you think would help your game and testing it out, same for disc selection, seeing what works for you etc. And when you are more focused and in the groove, you are actually thinking/focused about the specific things you have learned recently that help your game and the older stuff you have implemented in your game is becoming more automatic, decreasing your chances of shanking through time and playing/practice. It's called muscle memory! That is why you have to thinkkk about it when its something new or changed until the body memorizes the routine.
I can't think of one part of my game that is ever "subconsious phenomenon" and just like "holy moley", I did that... I know how and why it happened the way it did. If it's subconcious, how do you adapt to improve?

and bob, i don't think we are arguing, i think this is a very healthy and attractive subject to be discussing here...

[KenGilmore]

Originally Posted by "Over the Hill" Bob

What's really funny is that Hagerty made up a word, gave it a meaning and WE are on the 3rd page, still argueing about discmosis.

Bob

Welcome to the internet, Bob.