804.05 Disqualification and Suspension

["Over the Hill" Bob]

Concerning part of the above PDGA rule being hashed out in another thread about use of drugs and alcohol in tournement play lets have a thread of its own.

From the PDGA Official Rules of Disc Golf handbook:

804.05 Disqualification and Suspension
A. A player shall be disqulified by the director for meeting any of the neccessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for an of the following:

(4) Activities which are in violation of the law or park regulation or disc golf course rule, including the illegal consumption of drugs or alcohol.

There's the rule as it stands! No where does it say "at the discretion of the TD/Official". The rule must be followed or the player IS disqualified. However for me this rule does lend a lot to interpretation. It doesn't say "up to the two minute warning" nor does it say "after you putt out on your last hole". Also it uses the term, "illegal consumption of", which could mean medical pot is OK. Or that if it is legal to consume alcohol in the park or on the course that it is NOT in violation of the rule.

For purposes of the growth of the sport I believe this rule needs to clarified, in writing, in all printed and online materials by the PDGA. My belief is that the rule should read:

(4) Activities which are in violation of the law or park regulation or disc golf course rule, including the consumption of drugs or alcohol on premises of any PDGA sanctioned disc golf event.

Lets see where this discusion can take us.

Bob

[all2common]

I thought that I read somewhere, maybe the competition manual, that no drugs or alcohol were to be consumed during a tournament round. From the 2 minute warning until cards are turned in. I can't remember the rule, but remember looking into it because the language could be read as you suggested Bob.

At one time I was going to try and be a test case...Then realized it was a dumb idea.

[all2common]

Ok, found it.

"Section 3: Player Code of Conduct

3.3. Professional Misconduct

A. The PDGA adopts a strict policy of appropriate behavior
and comments to the media. Any conduct deemed to be
unprofessional is subject to disqualification by the
Tournament Director, and may also be subject to
suspension from PDGA events.

B. Players are expected to behave in a professional and
sportsmanlike manner while participating in a PDGA
sanctioned event. Actions that are in violation of this
conduct include but are not limited to:

• Throwing items in anger (other than discs in play)

• Overt rudeness

• Destruction or abuse of property, including plant life

• Cheating or willful attempt to circumvent the rules of
play

• Fighting or threatening other players, tournament staff,
or spectators

• Consumption of alcohol or use of any illegal substance
from the 2-minute warning until the player’s scorecard is
submitted

• Abuse of alcohol after play and on course property is
considered professional misconduct

• Underage drinking"

I pulled that from the pdga website.

[Flash]

Originally Posted by all2common

I thought that I read somewhere, maybe the competition manual, that no drugs or alcohol were to be consumed during a tournament round. From the 2 minute warning until cards are turned in. I can't remember the rule, but remember looking into it because the language could be read as you suggested Bob.

At one time I was going to try and be a test case...Then realized it was a dumb idea.

Here you go,
Competition Manual Section 3.1 Player Code of Conduct

[snap7times]

In the past, when guys asked me if it was ok if they smoked during a round, I just said nothing, but this year I have made a promise to myself to say it loud and proud, no you may not flippin break the rules during tournament play and don't make me do something I don't wanna do...

[Sausage Fingers]

Originally Posted by snap7times

In the past, when guys asked me if it was ok if they smoked during a round, I just said nothing, but this year I have made a promise to myself to say it loud and proud, no you may not flippin break the rules during tournament play and don't make me do something I don't wanna do...

Even though I wrote the Team Disc Golf rules to use all of the PDGA rules EXCEPT 804.05 A(4), I will call it if I see it during my round as well. So don't do it!

[Scott]

Originally Posted by snap7times

In the past, when guys asked me if it was ok if they smoked during a round, I just said nothing, but this year I have made a promise to myself to say it loud and proud, no you may not flippin break the rules during tournament play and don't make me do something I don't wanna do...

I'm the same way. Last year at Hyzer Pines a dude on my card asked me if I minded if he sparked up. I said I didn't mind, but would be obligated to turn him in. He was very pissed. I asked him if I could take two drives per hole and choose whichever one I liked. Of course he said no. I said that if I can't break a rule of my choice, neither can you. I'm honestly shocked that the incident didn't end with him punching me.

[AchimbaProphet]

Originally Posted by Sausage Fingers

Even though I wrote the Team Disc Golf rules to use all of the PDGA rules EXCEPT 804.05 A(4), I will call it if I see it during my round as well. So don't do it!

Why would you (or a club or series) except this rule? You do not have the authority to overrule city / county / state / federal law. This is absurd and it is this kind of attitude which will continue to grow the perception that disc golf is for drunks and junkies.

You say that you were personally involved in excepting this rule in blatant disregard of the law and then that you would call people on it? I do not even know if there is a type of hypocrisy to describe that. You sir are ridiculous.

[AchimbaProphet]

There is actually very little room for interpretation of the rule here. The intent is clear. The rule is straightforward and is worded with precision. It spells out what is necessary and sufficient to demarcate the right from the wrong.

804.05 Disqualification and Suspension
A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for an of the following:

(4) Activities which are in violation of the law or park regulation or disc golf course rule, including the illegal consumption of drugs or alcohol.

A player shall be disqualified... does not say may be or could be but shall be as in make it so. Activities in violation of rules, whether that be the law of the land, the rules and regulations of the parks department, or the rules of the disc golf course shall result in disqualification.

What can cause a disqualification from a PDGA tournament?
Activities which are in violation of the law.
Activities which are in violation of park regulation.
Activities which are in violation of disc golf course rules.
And also, the illegal consumption of drugs or alcohol.

Even the thickest of molasses headed intellects have a knowledge about many laws and a general idea about many others. No one needs legal training to know that it is a violation of the law to assault someone, to steal their car, to rape their woman, etc… I happen to believe that most everyone in the United States knows that it is a violation of the law to consume illegal drugs and that most everyone knows what are considered to be illegal drugs. Consumption of marijuana, crack, meth, heroin, cocaine, opium and other controlled substances is in violation of the law (state and federal and sometimes county or city as well). There are specific formal and documented exemptions of the law. A person is not exempted from the law because they disagree with it. I hope no one has smoked themselves silly enough to forget that it is not legal for you to do so. This rule is clear. An activity which is in violation of the law, as in the law of the land inclusive and comprehensive, will result in disqualification. That is the rule. And guess what, this rule even specifically calls out illegal consumption. So if you do not know what is a violation of the law they have spelled out one specific example in the rules quite clearly.

Activities which are in violation of park regulation. Individual parks (city / county / state / national) have rules and regulations. Many times they are posted clearly on the premises. They are always available from the parks department. There are some activities which are not a violation of the law which may be a violation of park regulation. Guess what? Almost every park rules and regulations list explicitly and clearly spells out that it is not legal to consume controlled substances. Illegal consumption is a violation of the law and it is a violation of park regulations. Two for two here.

Activities which are in violation of disc golf course rule. Some disc golf courses have additional rules and regulations. An example might be a no smoking policy. Perhaps not an activity in violation of the law, or of park rules and regulations, but may be against the course rules. Violate the local course rules and you are disqualified.

Finally, the illegal consumption of drugs or alcohol. Illegal consumption = disqualification. If you are a fucking idiot and you did not know that the consumption of illegal substances was against city / county / state / federal law and you did not know that it is a violation of the rules and regulations of the parks department, then it is abundantly and super clear here. Illegal consumption. Disqualification.

What constitutes illegal consumption? If you personally have a formal exception from a law then you are not guilty of illegal consumption. You are however, in violation of other PDGA rules if your legal consumption of drugs or alcohol occurs during the round. So even if you have permission from God, consumption of drugs or alcohol during a round of PDGA play = disqualification.

Do not be an idiot. You cannot justify the rule away. You should not disregard it. It is clear follow it.

By the way, the context for this has been a PDGA rule which is applicable to PDGA tournament play. PDGA rules are not applicable for other events and occasions. However, the law is always applicable, even when you do not know it.

[smobro]

Originally Posted by AchimbaProphet

There is actually very little room for interpretation of the rule here. The intent is clear. The rule is straightforward and is worded with precision. It spells out what is necessary and sufficient to demarcate the right from the wrong.

804.05 Disqualification and Suspension
A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for an of the following:

(4) Activities which are in violation of the law or park regulation or disc golf course rule, including the illegal consumption of drugs or alcohol.

A player shall be disqualified... does not say may be or could be but shall be as in make it so. Activities in violation of rules, whether that be the law of the land, the rules and regulations of the parks department, or the rules of the disc golf course shall result in disqualification.

What can cause a disqualification from a PDGA tournament?
Activities which are in violation of the law.
Activities which are in violation of park regulation.
Activities which are in violation of disc golf course rules.
And also, the illegal consumption of drugs or alcohol.

Even the thickest of molasses headed intellects have a knowledge about many laws and a general idea about many others. No one needs legal training to know that it is a violation of the law to assault someone, to steal their car, to rape their woman, etc… I happen to believe that most everyone in the United States knows that it is a violation of the law to consume illegal drugs and that most everyone knows what are considered to be illegal drugs. Consumption of marijuana, crack, meth, heroin, cocaine, opium and other controlled substances is in violation of the law (state and federal and sometimes county or city as well). There are specific formal and documented exemptions of the law. A person is not exempted from the law because they disagree with it. I hope no one has smoked themselves silly enough to forget that it is not legal for you to do so. This rule is clear. An activity which is in violation of the law, as in the law of the land inclusive and comprehensive, will result in disqualification. That is the rule. And guess what, this rule even specifically calls out illegal consumption. So if you do not know what is a violation of the law they have spelled out one specific example in the rules quite clearly.

Activities which are in violation of park regulation. Individual parks (city / county / state / national) have rules and regulations. Many times they are posted clearly on the premises. They are always available from the parks department. There are some activities which are not a violation of the law which may be a violation of park regulation. Guess what? Almost every park rules and regulations list explicitly and clearly spells out that it is not legal to consume controlled substances. Illegal consumption is a violation of the law and it is a violation of park regulations. Two for two here.

Activities which are in violation of disc golf course rule. Some disc golf courses have additional rules and regulations. An example might be a no smoking policy. Perhaps not an activity in violation of the law, or of park rules and regulations, but may be against the course rules. Violate the local course rules and you are disqualified.

Finally, the illegal consumption of drugs or alcohol. Illegal consumption = disqualification. If you are a fucking idiot and you did not know that the consumption of illegal substances was against city / county / state / federal law and you did not know that it is a violation of the rules and regulations of the parks department, then it is abundantly and super clear here. Illegal consumption. Disqualification.

What constitutes illegal consumption? If you personally have a formal exception from a law then you are not guilty of illegal consumption. You are however, in violation of other PDGA rules if your legal consumption of drugs or alcohol occurs during the round. So even if you have permission from God, consumption of drugs or alcohol during a round of PDGA play = disqualification.

Do not be an idiot. You cannot justify the rule away. You should not disregard it. It is clear follow it.

By the way, the context for this has been a PDGA rule which is applicable to PDGA tournament play. PDGA rules are not applicable for other events and occasions. However, the law is always applicable, even when you do not know it.

I started reading this but was so high I couldn't finish it. Maybe later. JK

I do think the spirit of the rule is designed to help PDGA events mainstream as stick golf did. I personally would like to see a dress code for Pros. Imagine the cool threads they could come up with. I say bring on the big, bling belt buckles and the plaid pants! However, I think the gallery should be allowed to get as ripped as they want.

[Sausage Fingers]

Originally Posted by AchimbaProphet

Why would you (or a club or series) except this rule? You do not have the authority to overrule city / county / state / federal law. This is absurd and it is this kind of attitude which will continue to grow the perception that disc golf is for drunks and junkies.

You say that you were personally involved in excepting this rule in blatant disregard of the law and then that you would call people on it? I do not even know if there is a type of hypocrisy to describe that. You sir are ridiculous.

Team Disc Golf is a free, casual non-PDGA winter event that I run because I want to. I can have any rules that I please. If someone objects, they don't have to play. Using the PDGA rules, as they pertain to disc golf, makes it easy for everyone to understand. I'm sure that you use them when you play a casual round of disc golf. But even those violations aren't called that often because it is casual play in the winter.

Now playing in a PDGA tournament is an entirely different event. Follow the rules. They will be called.

I don't see that as hypocrisy.

[Sam]

I don't see it as hypocrisy either. I think the difference is PDGA vs. non-PDGA, really. In a a PDGA event, it has to be followed. I have told people to not smoke during a tournament round or I would say something to the TD. I have also encouraged others to say something when they have seen violations of the rules. We all enter these tournaments with an understanding of the rules - or we should, anyway. Follow them or face the consequences.

Agreeing with this rule really has nothing to do with following it and/or enforcing it, in my opinion.

Honestly, if you didn't let me drink during Team Disc Golf - even if it is at a downtown park with big trees and rhymes with beer - I probably wouldn't come. Crappy weather and no drinking? No thanks. I'll watch college football.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by AchimbaProphet

]You say that you were personally involved in excepting this rule in blatant disregard of the law and then that you would call people on it?

Uh... EXCEPT...

SausageFingers runs NON-PDGA, NON-PDGA, NON-PDGA, NON-PDGA, NON-PDGA events.

D'oh!

Jordan (SF) ran the Trojan leg of the RCO last year and would not have made an exception for this rule, I have no doubt.

Apologies coming in 3, 2,...?

[Trozzle!!!]

Personally I dont care what people do during casual rounds, or even in Non PDGA events. I myself have drank many beers during Tue 2's and at many other non alcoholic parks. I dont condone it at all, but people are going to do it, regardless. As far as PDGA events go, rules are rules, regardless of its in an alcohol allowed park or not. you drink when you are not supposed to, you run the chance of getting busted!!!!! As far as the greenage goes, the same rules apply when it comes to PDGA events. When it comes to the green and casual or non PDGA events, you are taking that chance if thats what you want to do. If a cop came up to my group in a casual round cause they saw people smoking weed or drinking, they could search my bag. I dont ever carry weed, or smoke it, so they wouldnt find that in my bag. If I was drinking in a park that didnt allow it, and I got5 caught, I would deal with that on my own.

By the way since my DUI last summer, I am going through my alcohol treatment soon, and am going to quit, or really lower my drinking amounts

[AchimbaProphet]

Your clear endorsement of illegal activites is not welcome.

Ultimately, it is irrelevant if illegal consumption of drugs is or is not OK for disc golf play. It is not OK by the law if you are playing disc golf, tennis, or wall ball. That is part of the hipocrisy. It is never legal for you to allow illegal consumption, because you do not have the power to invalidate the law, yet you suggest that it is acceptable for your non-PDGA event.

You: Well this is a non-PDGA event so burn a fatty during casual play we do not care.
Me: It is always illegal to consume controlled substances, even during your casual play.

The difference between a PDGA and a non-PDGA tournament is explicit disqualification from the event. The similarity between the two is that in both cases it is a violation of the law to consume illegal substances. Do you get it? Is it clear? You can not say that it is acceptable to do drugs at your event because it is against the law to do so. Is it sinking in? Do you see through the haze? Should I elaborate about how you explicitly condoning violating the law does not help the perception of disc golf? Will it help the promotion of the sport for people to read that you think that it is totally fine to do drugs on your courses? Furthermore, that you can go to the course and virtually every time find someone engaging in the consumption of illegal substances. You guys are tipping of the authorities to yourselves. Classic.

[Trozzle!!!]

My biggest thing is that if you want to smoke weed, go ahead. If a cop sees us, they wont see me smoking, and if they search my bag, they wont find any.If you want to smoke and take that chance, go ahead. you are the one takin the chance, not me. As far as alcohol.....yeah i ahve taken the risk many times, and who knows? I may in the future. But, I would be the one taking the risk.So yeah, in a way I do condone illegal behavior, but if its me, or someone else taking the chance, you are the one taking the risk.

[Trozzle!!!]

and NO!!!!! I dont condone such habits in this sport, nor do I condemn it. as far as I am concerened, whether it be weed, alcohol, or any other substance. you take the risk yourself.

[Sam]

Achimba, let's say you are at a tournament that is non-PDGA and the tournament director decides to not play police and enforce the law during his or her tournament. When you see people smoking pot, what would you do?

Do you think that non-PDGA tournament directors say, "Please... break the law"? Seriously... have you been to many tournaments?

[Trozzle!!!]

No matter what. if the course allows alcohol and you dont violate PDGA rules, during a PDGA event, then there is no problem with it. If the general park rules forbid alcohol, and you violate that, you are subject to the TD's ruling. As far as weed goes. it is illegal no mater where you go, unless you got the card, so PDGA event or not, you are breaking the rules, unless the Medical Mari thing is actually valid.

[snap7times]

Ok, I'm gonna play good cop bad cop... First, when sausage said He wrote the Team Golf rules etc, I immediately assumed it was PDGA sanctioned cuz that is what started this thread, a pdga rule... so forgive anyone after the fact for jumping the gun and getting on sausage's case... NOW, that we know it was non-pdga sanctioned, we can't say much about it other than I hope spectators didn't see this smokefest happen and give DG a bad rep...

Scott, he probably did want to punch you but was still stoned from his pre round toke up and was afraid he might make a wrong move and be the one who gets his azz kicked...

Smobro, I know you wished you were high when you read that, would've made that so much funnier, I laughed though... really I did... And for dress code, I was impressed with the dress code at the Memorial by the top pros, all wore nice shorts, nice shoes and socks, nice shirts, nothing ugly or an eye sore like my knee high socks that never match my outfit...

Sam.... good question, what do I do if i'm at a non PDGA sanctioned tournament and my group starts firing up the biggest bad boy i have ever seen in my life? 2 things, tell them put it away or i'll use it as my drive on the next hole; I hope they pick nbr 1, but nbr 2 would be cool, since we don't have to huk pdga sanctioned discs in a non sanctioned event...