Destroyer vs Force.... I think I want a more consistent disc manufacturer

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Tim

Hmm, I haven't experienced that with Firebirds, but I do own two Vikings. Both are champion, one is max weight, and flies like a slightly more stable Valk. The other is 163g, and flies like a Firebird. No bong was involved in the assessment of these flights, btw.

A 163g Viking that flies like a Firebird - and you say no bong was involved. I find this very hard to believe, Tim. Have you thrown many Firebirds in your time?

[Adam Schneider]

I've heard this about Vikings too; it seems to be one of Innova's more inconsistent molds.

[Tim]

I found it hard to believe too...my main overstable disc is a Predator (for all intents and purposes, a Firebird), and the Viking flies similar--it might even be compared to an EXP or Banshee. I tend to prefer Innova (Millennium) drivers to Discraft, but when a lightweight disc is freakishly more stable than a max weight one of the same mold and plastic...well, you can hardly call that consistent.

[snap7times]

Could it be that you are subconsciously throwing the 163g differently than the 175g viking? I have owed 3-4 vikings in the past 2 years, all few similar to eachother and never had one that faded anywhere close to a firebird unless I eased up on it, alot...
And BVD is correct, you lose a conditioned disc and then get the same one off the shelf and realize it's nothing like the disc you lost. well throw it at least 20-30 more times before making any judgements. If I threw every disc less than 20 times before passing judgement on it, I would be throwing a 132g #1 Hyzer as my main driver now with almost zero Innova or Discraft in my bag.
Also, maybe the disc isn't exactly the way your old one flew, but hey, you'll learn what that current disc will do and use it to fit your game, not force the disc to fly where it dosent wanna fly.
The champ valk I have now is nothing like the one I bought off the shelf 6 months ago.
And Sam finally makes a good "Innova-Kool-Aide" induced comment about the backups in the bag already and knowing what they do before starting a round... never have a disc that you don't trust in your bag for a round. Save it for a practice day where you will give it the attention it deserves to learn what it does for you before using it on the course where it counts.

wow, just previewed this and i feel like my words just runnn my toungue out of my mouth... good thing i can sign it...

Edit: All my vikings have been 169-172g, just for the record... And i parked a hole here in rocklin that I have never been able to park before, thanks to my 170 viking...

[Sam]

Maybe it was a Banshee that they just wrote Viking on? Have you compared the profile with your other Viking? I mean... is it REALLY a Viking? I have a hard time believing that the discs look the same as far as plate thickness, rim height and thickness and fly so differently.

[Tim]

I actually got the 163g one first. I think I'd just bought it on a whim after reading one of Dave D.'s posts about how the Viking was the most unappreciated disc and whatnot. Figuring at 163g, I'd be able to throw it a mile, I let it launch and it flew straight and immediately to the left. I tried keeping it in my bag for 2 weeks or so, trying to get a good feel for it, but it got to the point where my buddies would be like "oh god, you're going to try to throw THAT thing again?" I think the light one may have a flatter top than the max weight, but I haven't looked at the rim profiles side by side. If it were the case that it is indeed a misstamped disc, that would explain things, but wouldn't do much to defend Innova's quality control.

[Sam]

Compare the two. Both companies misstamp discs.

[gwillim]

Originally Posted by Sam

I have a hard time believing that the discs look the same as far as plate thickness, rim height and thickness and fly so differently.

Come on Sam, this is a problem with all manufacturers occasionally. The flight pattern can be altered significantly by things that we can't see with our eyes. It's very sensitive.

There was a run of Z Predators back in 2004 that were all orange. They flew NOTHING like Predators, in fact, they were almost more like an XS in terms of stability.

There was an early run of yellow CE Valkyries that were coined "Franken Valks" because they flew VERY similarly to Firebirds

The Dcraft Crush had a problem where the first run flew drastically different than the production runs.

The Boss is a more current example. The star stamped boss is visually the same disc (maybe a bit flatter) as the production run boss, however the production run boss is significantly more overstable.


I could go on and on and on.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the harder/more powerful you throw, the more these inconsistencies are evident. Someone maxing out at 300' isn't going to be able to see anywhere near the same discrepancies as someone bombing 450'.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by gwillim

Come on Sam, this is a problem with all manufacturers occasionally. The flight pattern can be altered significantly by things that we can't see with our eyes. It's very sensitive.

But the difference between these things Firebird and these things Viking should be very apparent, I would think. No?

The rest of your post was excellent and does quite a bit to expose the other side of the "consistency" issue that somehow Innova gets saddled with while Discraft usually gets the free pass from the undereducated masses. Thanks.

[snap7times]

Originally Posted by Tim

I actually got the 163g one first. I think I'd just bought it on a whim after reading one of Dave D.'s posts about how the Viking was the most unappreciated disc and whatnot. Figuring at 163g, I'd be able to throw it a mile, I let it launch and it flew straight and immediately to the left. I tried keeping it in my bag for 2 weeks or so, trying to get a good feel for it, but it got to the point where my buddies would be like "oh god, you're going to try to throw THAT thing again?" I think the light one may have a flatter top than the max weight, but I haven't looked at the rim profiles side by side. If it were the case that it is indeed a misstamped disc, that would explain things, but wouldn't do much to defend Innova's quality control.

Take the viking to a local pro shop, have it looked at... I doubt it is a viking if you are throwing it properly...

[Tim]

Assuming I can find both, I'll compare them when I get home. And sure, discs get misstamped...but they're supposed to get an X-out stamp on top of that when that happens.

[gwillim]

Originally Posted by Sam

But the difference between these things Firebird and these things Viking should be very apparent, I would think. No?

I need you to re-phrase that before I answer it, I'm not entirely sure what you're saying.

Originally Posted by Sam

the "consistency" issue that somehow Innova gets saddled with while Discraft usually gets the free pass from the undereducated masses

Everyone loves an underdog story.

<begin rant>

Brand loyalty in disc golf is STUPID. The people that have been playing for only a short time and are willing to stand up and claim a brand that they throw, and defend the credentials of this brand over that brand are pretty numb in the head. The idea that one brand's products are somehow better than another brands products is absurd, when in reality they're virtually the same and the only thing that really matters is who's throwing the disc. If you have enough skill to shoot -5 at Pier Park with an all Innova bag, but you're unable to do the same with an all Dcraft bag, then you have a big problem.

Sam mentioned that the consistency issue gets placed primarily in Innova's lap in everyday DG conversation. That's true, at least here in PDX. In other parts of the DG World, people view it the exact opposite. So what is it? Personally, I think that the drivers produced from Dcraft in 2003-2006 were far superior in plastic blend and consistency than the Innova drivers that came out at the same time. Is it true? Maybe, but it's a pretty hard thing to prove, so instead we jump on the brand loyalty bandwagon and just speculate until everyone around us speculates the same thing. In essence, we have created a fact.

I could keep writing, but I'm about to get to the point where I'm calling people out, and that's pretty dumb also, as well as unnecessary.

In closing, brand loyalty in DG is dumb, unless you're sponsored, then it's a necessary evil.

</end rant>

[gwillim]

Oh, before anybody comments, I was referring ONLY to Discraft and Innova in the above post.

[JMan]

I throw all Discraft. I could jump on the brand loyalty bandwagon, but won't. Hey I've thrown every brand out there over the years. I throw all Discraft for simplicity, for me fewer molds I can throw well is more important than brand. I finally made the switch to all Discraft because I tired of the inherent inconsistencies of innova. And while there are bound to be differences between runs from either manufacturers, Discraft variances are less perceptible to me. That consistency builds confidence, and confidence means I miss my putts by smaller measurements. Heck, if I could drain 90% of my putts with a hard buffalo chip, I'd be throwing a buffalo chip.

[Sam]

So I can still mock people who throw the Maximizer?

To rephrase my question... if you look at a Viking and you look at a Firebird, there should be some areas of difference that just jump out at you - such as rim-depth, rim width, flight-plate thickness, etc. Wouldn't you think that these differences (which makes these discs fly so differently) are apparent to the naked eye?

[gwillim]

Originally Posted by Sam

Wouldn't you think that these differences (which makes these discs fly so differently) are apparent to the naked eye?

Definitely, but I thought we were referring to identical discs that fly much differently?

[Sam]

We are. But isn't the flight of a disc determined by things such as rim-width and flight-plate and whatnot?

I am just having a hard time being convinced that a disc that is built like a Viking and clearly has Viking characteristics would magically fly like a disc that has completely different characteristics. I mean... where does this stop? Can a Coyote be like a Firebird? How about an Aviar? Certainly, there must be some limitations on this... right?

[gwillim]

Originally Posted by Sam

We are. But isn't the flight of a disc determined by things such as rim-width and flight-plate and whatnot?

I am just having a hard time being convinced that a disc that is built like a Viking and clearly has Viking characteristics would magically fly like a disc that has completely different characteristics. I mean... where does this stop? Can a Coyote be like a Firebird? How about an Aviar? Certainly, there must be some limitations on this... right?

The limitation that you're looking for would be the speed of the disc.

[gwillim]

If the discs are the same speed, they can be shaped all wacky but have the same flight, or be shaped similarly and have different flights.

Take the Surge and the Surge SS, for instance. Visually, they are quite similar, however their flight pattern is way different.

And another example on the other side would be a Whippet vs. Xtreme. Visually, they are not very similar, but their flight pattern and speed are very similar.

[Tim]

OK, so here's the disc in question, I apologize for shitty cell phone camera quality:



(I was actually lying through my teeth, it's 162g, not 163)


Next to the "good" Viking:




And stacked on top:


There's definitely a discrepancy between the two discs, the freak Viking's rim sits taller than the normal one's. The shape of the wing is different, but I can't tell if it's a different mold, or that they cooled differently or whatnot. I'm really wishing I had a better camera right now, it's hard to get the angle right using the phone's "viewfinder".

For the sake of comparison, here it is next to a 9x KC Pro FB: