limited fields?????? dealing with growing pains - Disc Golf

Flatroc · #1 March 25th, 2009, 09:04 AM

First off, I want to see as many people attend an event as that event allows.
I notice that quite a few times gigs say that they are limiting the field but in fact go over their said limits.
This is good for the peeps who still may get in, but maybe not so good for the folks who signed up knowing/thinking the field would limited.
I'm totally aware that full gigs, waiting on tee pads, ghost groups, is more of the norm these days, but, I'm also trying to come up with ways that this doesn't happen as much.
I've found that by sticking to a commitment of limited fields, there is less waiting on tee pads.
I believe it is much more fair for the folks who "got in the limt'" to get to play without the longer waits, as it would be for the extra folks who are now in and forcing longer waits.
We stuck to our limits last year at WBDS and will again.
There were even teams who drove down from PDX thinking they might still get in if they showed up.
That was one of my worst times as a TD to tell them I'm sorry we are sticking to our format for the sake of the rest of the field.

Sam · #2 March 25th, 2009, 09:14 AM

If you put it out there and people don't pay attention enough to sign up before the field maxes out, you really have nothing to feel bad about, Yose. There are definitely people who want no part in 5somes or ghost groups or waiting on pads and those who sign up early with the belief that they will not have to deal with this would be getting screwed more by you being a nice guy than the people who couldn't bother to sign up on time.

Stick to your guns. People will eventually get it that you mean to limit field sizes.

My two cents, anyway.

Bullseye · #3 March 25th, 2009, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam

If you put it out there and people don't pay attention enough to sign up before the field maxes out, you really have nothing to feel bad about, Yose. There are definitely people who want no part in 5somes or ghost groups or waiting on pads and those who sign up early with the belief that they will not have to deal with this would be getting screwed more by you being a nice guy than the people who couldn't bother to sign up on time.

Stick to your guns. People will eventually get it that you mean to limit field sizes.

My two cents, anyway.

I agree completely. I HATE five-somes and I can't stand ghost groups. The only time I can tolerate a ghost group is if there is really long hole that can accommodate both groups before the following group makes it to the tee pad. Otherwise it always feels like you're starting a tourney with a back-up.

As much as I hate to say it... we're reaching critical mass, and it looks like the only option, however distasteful as it may be, might be to start the Pro/Am weekends. This puts a huge strain on TDs and the clubs supporting them.

"Over the Hill" Bob · #4 March 25th, 2009, 09:34 AM

I hear what Yose is saying and agree with Sam and Jeff. We know we are starting to see a problem, now what do we do about it? My first thought is that I am going to hate seperate weekends because I love seeing all the other action when I'm not playing my round. I'm old and change is something I fight all the time. But for disc golf's sake change is a necessary evil. I've actually thought about organizing a "retreat" of sorts and inviting a handful of disc golf old timers, like Yose, and the up and comers that are starting to run events. (Sorry for using you in the old timer reference Yose.) Sit around a fire and discuss the past, present, and future of disc golf.

What are they doing in other parts of the country? Is the growth causing the same issues, or has the growth caught up to them as it has here? WE might be a model for what the rest of the country will do in the future. A lot to think about for sure.

Bob

LJ Jubner · #5 March 25th, 2009, 10:07 AM

This is a great thread. The only way to have ghosts is to have them start on a short fast hole just after a longer slow hole. Division also need to be address Adv Ghost following and Am II won't work. Like SeaTac I would ghost on hole one, because 15-18 are long as well as the hardest holes.
13 is also a candidate because it's short between two long holes.

Here's a good question Say your field Max's at 72 with pretty even registration. If the course can handle it Could a TD have 5's for the Open players and 4's for the Am's. I don't think the Am's will be any slower than Open 5's + it bolsters the Open pot but not at the Am's expense.

discrazy55 · #6 March 25th, 2009, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye

I agree completely. I HATE five-somes and I can't stand ghost groups. The only time I can tolerate a ghost group is if there is really long hole that can accommodate both groups before the following group makes it to the tee pad. Otherwise it always feels like you're starting a tourney with a back-up.

As much as I hate to say it... we're reaching critical mass, and it looks like the only option, however distasteful as it may be, might be to start the Pro/Am weekends. This puts a huge strain on TDs and the clubs supporting them.

As a newbie, what is a ghost group?

Flatroc · #7 March 25th, 2009, 11:18 AM

Ghost groups refer to when an event's field is over the maximum and you add a group to a hole where there is already a group.(also called "shadowing")
Basically 2 and yes in some cases 3 groups on 1 tee pad.

Limiting the field to a number that works best for the gig will usually eliminate the chance of ghost groups.

papatart · #8 March 25th, 2009, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by "Over the Hill" Bob

What are they doing in other parts of the country? Is the growth causing the same issues, or has the growth caught up to them as it has here? WE might be a model for what the rest of the country will do in the future. A lot to think about for sure.

Bob

What are they doing in other parts of the country? I know everyone hates me saying this over and over, but it is simple. what they do most other places is NOT have two-day B and C tier events. While the event will be played on both days of the weekend, the divisions only play one day (two rounds). This allows the TD to still do everything on one weekend, have more volunteers, allow twice the number of people to play and have even more people show up as many can play one day on the weekend but not both.

I just talked to a friend in Michigan and once again they had a HUGE turnout to their event in Lansing, MI. They had 75 on Saturday and 92 on Sunday. It was a B Tier and two rounds per day. If memory serves me right they use a 21 hole course so only one third of the course had fivesomes on Sunday. The point here is that 167 people showed up for a "one-day" event that was a B tier. The other fun thing they do is put Intermediate and Pro Masters on Saturday and Advanced and Open on Sunday. That way, for those who do want to play both days and can, it is a fun way to see if they can move up or see how they would fair in the upper division.

They do this all over the country to help with the growing number of players and the ability to keep it on one weekend. I know that many people out here in the Northwest feel that the events have to be two days or nobody will come to them and nobody will travel to them. While true that you may lose some travelers, you will gain many more local players that can only play one day on the weekend. Further, with the amount of events in each state (WA and OR) the travelling has dwindled down to a very few people. These folk remind me of myself when I first started and I had now problem being in Chicago on Saturday and St Louis on Sunday because I was younger, single and a disc golf junkie.

Five hour drive for a one day B-tier? No problem then. Give up an entire weekend and maybe skip a day of work for a two day B Tier at my local park? In this climate of the economy and now with a family, I'll skip it and wait for a local one day event....

Rather than be a model, it might be best to look at proven models in areas of the country where disc golf has been a much larger sport for a much longer time. They have been over the potholes already and know how to make it work for many more people than we have out here.

Later,
Scott Papa
Team Diacraft
Instructional Editor DiscGolfer Magazine

Scott · #9 March 25th, 2009, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by discrazy55

As a newbie, what is a ghost group?

Great question.

A ghost group is a 19th group on an 18 hole course. At the start of a tournamnet, each group usually starts on a different hole (known as a shotgun start).

Let's say there is a foursome starting on every hole, and two groups on hole 7. At the start of the tournament, the first group on hole 7 plays. When they have holed out, the ghost group plays. When they have holed out, the group that started on hole 6 plays.

Sam · #10 March 25th, 2009, 12:15 PM

I would think putting the Advanced and the Open fields on the same day would limit the number of people who want to step up and play both rather than expand it. I couldn't see playing Intermediate and then playing Open on consecutive days as being appealing for many. Advanced and then Open seems more feasible to me.

NWDiscer · #11 March 25th, 2009, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam

I would think putting the Advanced and the Open fields on the same day would limit the number of people who want to step up and play both rather than expand it. I couldn't see playing Intermediate and then playing Open on consecutive days as being appealing for many. Advanced and then Open seems more feasible to me.

I think he is talking about the Pro Masters being able to play both days or an Int player moving up

Sam · #12 March 25th, 2009, 12:35 PM

I understand that. If Pro Masters had a field anywhere close to Advanced that would be a great idea. As there usually aren't more than a fistful of Pro Masters, though, this seems like a bad idea.

SMOKIN JOE · #13 March 25th, 2009, 01:03 PM

i don't believe in ghost groups,,especially at venues that have plenty of room to add a hole or two
waiting at every hole really sucks,getting done half hour after someone else who wasn't put in the middle of the jam is an unfair advantage
fivesomes don't work that well either for the higher scoring groups,limit fivesomes to adv. and open groups,
it's still awesome to have these kinds of problems instead of the ones in the past like, will we have enough baskets to set up course,will there be anyone else in my division, will we have more than forty

snap7times · #14 March 25th, 2009, 01:20 PM

More holes or more courses... one day tournaments are boring...

keys · #15 March 25th, 2009, 01:30 PM

What about tee times? I thought tee times were one way to get larger fields through the course.

Bullseye · #16 March 25th, 2009, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keys

What about tee times? I thought tee times were one way to get larger fields through the course.

Regardless of division, fivesomes always suck. Period. I hate them.

Tee times work very well, but it is much more labor intensive to institute them properly.

Jeff

PS: Did I mention I hate fivesomes?

Tim · #17 March 25th, 2009, 01:42 PM

I agree, adding holes, or multiple courses is the best first step for larger fields. I've never played with a ghost group, but that just seems like its setting up for an inevitable cluster**** along the way. I much prefer playing in foursomes to fivesomes, but since the majority of the WA series tourneys have been 5-somes, I guess I've kinda gotten used to it, and don't find it to be horrible. That's not a bad concept of limiting 5 somes to the more advanced players.

As far as splitting an event into 2 tourneys, i think splitting into separate weekends should only be done for A-tiers. Having a tourney split across weekends would be a real PITA for any traveling golfers, especially if a regular group has multiple divisions in it. For instance, I play Adv., but regularly travel with Open and/or Int. players, depending on how the event is split up, we'd likely have to split our group up too. I've always liked the idea that Scott's talked about, I'd like to play in an event like that. Heck, if we can get Terrace up to tourney standards during the season, I'd consider doing such a thing myself. As to Sam's comments about which divisions play on what days, I think compelling arguments could be made in either direction.

Scott · #18 March 25th, 2009, 01:43 PM

One thing that hasn't been discussed yet - more tournaments.

We always bitch and moan about two tournaments being on the same date, but it does allow more to play.

Chuck Kennedy · #19 March 25th, 2009, 01:46 PM

They put Open and Intermediate on one day and Advanced and Pro Masters on the other day so Adv and MPM can play Open the other day and Int can play Adv the other day.

Dave Pittman · #20 March 25th, 2009, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by papatart

I just talked to a friend in Michigan and once again they had a HUGE turnout to their event in Lansing, MI. They had 75 on Saturday and 92 on Sunday. It was a B Tier and two rounds per day. If memory serves me right they use a 21 hole course so only one third of the course had fivesomes on Sunday. The point here is that 167 people showed up for a "one-day" event that was a B tier. The other fun thing they do is put Intermediate and Pro Masters on Saturday and Advanced and Open on Sunday. That way, for those who do want to play both days and can, it is a fun way to see if they can move up or see how they would fair in the upper division.

Some may see this as an improvement but I sure don't. I would much rather play three rounds over two days at two of the best courses in the state. It really isn't allowing more player's to play either.

Michigan 167 players (less if any play both days) play two rounds for the weekend. GNO at Whistler's 160 players will play three rounds for the weekend. Celebration 08 at Dexter 159 players played three rounds for the weekend.

David