10th Downriver Open - Apr. 9 & 10

[Gordy #21004]

Originally Posted by psychodwarf

any reason that this is here? is this for DRO or just some random infomation? just wondering

Jub is talking about withdrawls prior to the event. I'm referring to withdrawl during the event. Maybe it would be better if I called it 'did not finish'. G.

[mcbentz]

Originally Posted by Gordy #21004

Another 'disc'usion the TD and the officials had was over whether the Final "9" would qualify as a rated round since there were 22 propagators going out. It was brought up that the PDGA sets a minimum of 13 holes of play for a round to be rated so we concluded the '9' would not be rated....During that round I was asked by a player if the round was to be rated because they were having a terrible time and would rather drop out, forfeit their winnings, and not have this event affect their player rating. I assured them the round would not be rated based on the conclusion above. In the meantime I see there are ratings for the'9' on the results page so I potentially have an upset player to answer. The only consolation I have to offer at this time also comes from the PDGA; Players who withdraw or fail to turn in their scorecards at the end of play in order to protect their player rating are subject to separate penalties and/or sanctions from the PDGA. (see Competition Manual, section 3 under player misconduct,3.3,#13. .....I'll wait to see if the ratings for the '9' stand and if so I'm sorry for giving the player information that I thought was accurate. In light of the player's clear intent to protect their rating from a high score, however, I think the 'letter' of a high level of player conduct remained intact. ....This issue of withdrawls and player conduct came to my attention during the final counting of cards at the Officials table when it became known that other players had not turned in their cards and thus had raised the 'suggestion' that an attempt to protect individual ratings was afoot.

Gordy,

I was the guy questioning you about the Final 9 being rated. After being assured I was a little surprised to see that the final 9 was rated.

After reading that "players who withdraw or fail to turn in their scorecards at the end of play in order to protect their player rating (which was my intent) is against pdga rules"..... I have no hard feelings

I would much rather shoot bad and be legit then brake the pdga rules and be penalized for doing so.

Also, I remember reading somewhere that if you're rated round (837) is 100 points lower then you rating (953) that round would not count towards your rating.

Is there still hope afterall???

Matt-

[mcbentz]

On another note,

You said "This issue of withdrawls and player conduct came to my attention during the final counting of cards at the Officials table when it became known that other players had not turned in their cards and thus had raised the 'suggestion' that an attempt to protect individual ratings was afoot"

If I had known the round was going to be rated I would have dropped out! Know question about it!!! Of course this is prior to my knowledge of the rule.

So, as an official would you have reported me to the PDGA for doing so?

Just curious....

[ScottW]

My interpretation of the rule - as a certified official - would be to say that if a player intentionally quit during a round by either purposely playing poorly to drop a rating so much that it would fall 100 point or more than 2 Standard Deviations below their rating, or intentionally did not play their last shot so as to not officially finish a round, or not turn in their scorecard for a completed round then yes that would be in violation of the above rule that Gordy mentioned and would be reportable to the PDGA (as I think it should be, you are only cheating your self and falsely inflating your rating by doing so). I am not sure how this would apply to a final 9 playoff situation though. It would probably apply as long as the final 9 layout was announced in advance then it would be up to the player to decide whether or not to enter the tournament at all because the finals layout was announced in advance. Just my interpretation of the rules.

[Parks]

Originally Posted by psychodwarf

at last minute it was decided it would go against the PDGA`S rules

It's not against PDGA rules to use different course layouts, so I'm not sure where this came from.

[psychodwarf]

Originally Posted by ScottW

My interpretation of the rule - as a certified official - would be to say that if a player intentionally quit during a round by either purposely playing poorly to drop a rating so much that it would fall 100 point or more than 2 Standard Deviations below their rating, or intentionally did not play their last shot so as to not officially finish a round, or not turn in their scorecard for a completed round then yes that would be in violation of the above rule that Gordy mentioned and would be reportable to the PDGA (as I think it should be, you are only cheating your self and falsely inflating your rating by doing so). I am not sure how this would apply to a final 9 playoff situation though. It would probably apply as long as the final 9 layout was announced in advance then it would be up to the player to decide whether or not to enter the tournament at all because the finals layout was announced in advance. Just my interpretation of the rules.

this seems to make a lot of sense ...

parks , that`s what i was told .. i can be wrong some times. ( i hope 85% of the time i am right or .. could that be wrong .. my math is not really good lately )

[mcbentz]

Originally Posted by ScottW

My interpretation of the rule - as a certified official - would be to say that if a player intentionally quit during a round by either purposely playing poorly to drop a rating so much that it would fall 100 point or more than 2 Standard Deviations below their rating, or intentionally did not play their last shot so as to not officially finish a round, or not turn in their scorecard for a completed round then yes that would be in violation of the above rule that Gordy mentioned and would be reportable to the PDGA (as I think it should be, you are only cheating your self and falsely inflating your rating by doing so). I am not sure how this would apply to a final 9 playoff situation though. It would probably apply as long as the final 9 layout was announced in advance then it would be up to the player to decide whether or not to enter the tournament at all because the finals layout was announced in advance. Just my interpretation of the rules.

So, what your saying is he should report me for shooting 100 points under my rating?

[General Scales]

Originally Posted by mcbentz

So, what your saying is he should report me for shooting 100 points under my rating?

If you did it deliberately.

[Gordy #21004]

Originally Posted by mcbentz

So, what your saying is he should report me for shooting 100 points under my rating?

Matt, You did nothing wrong. Your tough time in the Final Nine was in no way intentional. I only brought up your particular situation because it seemed to me relative to the instance of other player's cards not being turned in. As I was not the Director, it would not be up to me to rule on disqualification. As a marshal or as an official I do report back to the Director but in your case there was no cause for action; .... In my own rounds we had some lively rules discussions among ourselves and my objectives as a player include continuing to educate myself and my co-players about standards of play, and not to be on a mission to hand out penalties.......The rules keep changing and it is difficult for players AND officials to keep up with what's expected of them. Our first Super Tour is coming up over Memorial Day and I'm sure we'll all be in the cross-hairs. Come play with us again. Gordy.

[Gordy #21004]

Can I talk about what a great weekend I had with youall yet? For me, I did my best and then I did my worst. It was great while it was going good and when I collapsed I took it in stride. Its just way to nice at Downriver on a spring day to 'blow up' and and spoil such a good time. Thanks to everyone who came out and who helped out and especially to Bob who pulled this event out of nowhere, got it on the schedule and put it all together in about three weeks. Gordy

[ScottW]

This is interesting conversation. All i was saying is what General Scales said in his last post. Thanks Stu!

[jshrack]

I really don't think anyone had a clear understanding of that final 9.
Nobody was told if it was required or optional...
I think a lot of people were tired after 3 rounds and would have opted out if it just meant that they didn't get plastic.
I also know a lot of people wanted to watch the PRO final 9, it was odd playing AM and NOT getting to watch the big guns duel it out at the end.
This usually seems to be the time where everyone winds down and enjoys watching some good golf and the end of a long tourney...

If we had chosen to skip the FINAL 9, would it have counted as a DNF?
Or could we have just taken our place out of the money?

Lots of questions arise of the situation... I still had a blast!
One of the funnest tourneys I have been to, can't wait for the next!

[LJ Jubner]

Originally Posted by jshrack

I really don't think anyone had a clear understanding of that final 9.
Nobody was told if it was required or optional...
I think a lot of people were tired after 3 rounds and would have opted out if it just meant that they didn't get plastic.
I also know a lot of people wanted to watch the PRO final 9, it was odd playing AM and NOT getting to watch the big guns duel it out at the end.
This usually seems to be the time where everyone winds down and enjoys watching some good golf and the end of a long tourney...

If we had chosen to skip the FINAL 9, would it have counted as a DNF?
Or could we have just taken our place out of the money?

Lots of questions arise of the situation... I still had a blast!
One of the funnest tourneys I have been to, can't wait for the next!

Thsi happend several years ago at an LCO AM player was better then last cash pased on 9 and took last cash.

I was looking at the flyer and it says
Format all players
Sat Two rounds w lunch break assuming 18 hole/round min
Sun 1 round with safari final 9
Final 9 Open cash +1
Final 9 Adv scrip +1

Seems pretty straight forward to me 9 was included.

Now the passing on the nine is intersting. It would depend on how the paperwork was sbmitted as a 54 hole event or a 54 hole event + a final 9. If you did pass on the nine you should not DNF just sacrifice your payout

[Lyounger]

Stimpi apologized for the problems associated with the false start but I couldn't hear why it happened.

Is this a circumstance we could all learn from or just one of things that happened and needs to be let go...

[Stimpi]

Originally Posted by Lyounger

Stimpi apologized for the problems associated with the false start but I couldn't hear why it happened.

Is this a circumstance we could all learn from or just one of things that happened and needs to be let go...

Typically, events allow about an hour break, from when the last cards are turned in. I was thinking in this direction, and anxious to begin the second round, noticing the weather building up in the SouthWest, so I called for the second round, not knowing there was a specific time listed on the registration flyer.
When this was brought to my attention, the round was stopped until the appointed time, with the "late" players allowed to catch up in the mean time. That just seemed fair to me, and I apologize again for not knowing how my own event is supposed to be run.
What should be learned here, is... read your own flyers, or don't put a specific second round time and have everyone in the event ask you, "What time do we start the second round?".
Another thing to learn is, don't get wigged out when spontaneity strikes and things change. Change is inevitable.
Stimpi

[TreeLove]

TD Tips: ALWAYS stick to the posted facts. If there are multiple source of information, always update them all at the same time. ALWAYS stick to the posted schedule. DGOD, you hearing me ?

[Lyounger]

Originally Posted by Stimpi

Typically, events allow about an hour break, from when the last cards are turned in. I was thinking in this direction, and anxious to begin the second round, noticing the weather building up in the SouthWest, so I called for the second round, not knowing there was a specific time listed on the registration flyer.
When this was brought to my attention, the round was stopped until the appointed time, with the "late" players allowed to catch up in the mean time. That just seemed fair to me, and I apologize again for not knowing how my own event is supposed to be run.
What should be learned here, is... read your own flyers, or don't put a specific second round time and have everyone in the event ask you, "What time do we start the second round?".
Another thing to learn is, don't get wigged out when spontaneity strikes and things change. Change is inevitable.
Stimpi

Thank you for the explanation!!

No worries at all :-)

Didn't realize people got all wigged out and didn't mean to make you re-live the trauma

[TreeLove]

Of course people wigged out. When don't they?

[General Scales]

Yeah we had to restart right after I posted a 3 on hole 9. I was quite upset at that. So I went back and did it again. Wasn't so upset after that.

[gmason1]

General- Im not clear on the rules for false start but Seems to me that shouldnt have been your fault? if the start horn was blasted and you threw it shouldnt count against you or constitute a re-throw? i would be really upset if the horn blew, I threw and ace and then had to re-throw at my expense when it wasnt my bad? I even heard of one person complaining they had to take an extra stroke on throw 1 because of the early horn? if throws are early in a situation like this cant you just play the discs where they landed once the official horn is blown? Seems like the TD should be the ones ruling on this particular event and it seemed like it was being handled group by group rather than being addressed by the TD as a whole what the penalites would be..

-G