New Rules School on OB rule

[all2common]

I see I have confused differing topics.

[Chuck Kennedy]

But throw and distance is the rule for a lost disc. That change was implemented a couple of years ago to save the argument of trying to guess where the disc might have last been in bounds.

Formerly "last been seen" for lost disc. Has been an option when a player goes OB since 2002 rulebook.

[Sausage Fingers]

Originally Posted by all2common

I see I have confused differing topics.

Sorry for the confusion between Lost Disc and OB as the title of this thread designates.

[Joshua Olmsted]

Great link, very informative and easy to understand, just the other day in a small event I had someone try and tell me I HAD to take the full one meter relief, and now I can say with confidence, that is not the case.

[Toby Puttzinski]

The provisional throw definitely comes into play more often in mountain golf tourneys. I felt like many players were misinterpreting/bending this rule at the Mountain High Tourney last summer. It's my understanding that if your first drive goes deep into the tree line, and you subsequently throw a 'provisional', that you must make an honest effort to find your disc. Many players were making zero effort to find their first drives. Hypothetically, a player could save several strokes by not looking for their 'lost' disc. Should it be a 'group' decision whether or not a player/group should make an effort to find the disc?

[olydiscgolf]

Originally Posted by Toby Puttzinski

The provisional throw definitely comes into play more often in mountain golf tourneys. I felt like many players were misinterpreting/bending this rule at the Mountain High Tourney last summer. It's my understanding that if your first drive goes deep into the tree line, and you subsequently throw a 'provisional', that you must make an honest effort to find your disc. Many players were making zero effort to find their first drives. Hypothetically, a player could save several strokes by not looking for their 'lost' disc. Should it be a 'group' decision whether or not a player/group should make an effort to find the disc?

I see where you are going with this Toby, but how many discs can a player lose and still be in contention? The player is still throwing 3 off the tee. I have thrown disc's and pretty much left them without even looking (cape fear/ 4 mound dgc). Sometimes its in the best interest of the group and the tourney (speed of play) to let them go.

[KenGilmore]

Originally Posted by Toby Puttzinski

The provisional throw definitely comes into play more often in mountain golf tourneys. I felt like many players were misinterpreting/bending this rule at the Mountain High Tourney last summer. It's my understanding that if your first drive goes deep into the tree line, and you subsequently throw a 'provisional', that you must make an honest effort to find your disc. Many players were making zero effort to find their first drives. Hypothetically, a player could save several strokes by not looking for their 'lost' disc. Should it be a 'group' decision whether or not a player/group should make an effort to find the disc?

Toby, see rule 803.06 (Optional Rethrow). You do not have to look for a potentially lost disc. You always have the option to rethrow from your original spot if that seems to be a better option.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Originally Posted by KenGilmore

Toby, see rule 803.06 (Optional Rethrow). You do not have to look for a potentially lost disc. You always have the option to rethrow from your original spot if that seems to be a better option.

Exactly. That's an example where the Optional Rethrow is especially important - to save time plus wear & tear on all the players in the group who aren't forced to go into areas where they might get ripped up.

[Toby Puttzinski]

803.06 Unplayable Lie
Not exactly the same situation. I'm talking about a disc thrown into a treeline that wouldn't be impossible to find, nor unplayable. I definitely see the value of the provisional throw, especially in certain terrain. When a player has determined to throw a 'provisional' throw, should they have to state whether or shot #1 is unplayable, or ?
It seems that a group decision should be made prior to the provisional throw, as to whether throw #1 is unplayable.

Here is a hypothetical scenario:

300 steep downhill hole. Player A--Throw #1 goes 500 feet past basket into lightly wooded area-- 40% chance group may find disc. Provisional throw goes 400 feet past the basket into same area.

Player A will definitely be looking for drive #1...

Player B-- throw #1 goes 500 ft past the basket. Damn headwind! Provisional throw is a hole-in-two.

Does Player B have to look for drive #1?

[Toby Puttzinski]

Originally Posted by olydiscgolf

I see where you are going with this Toby, but how many discs can a player lose and still be in contention? The player is still throwing 3 off the tee. I have thrown disc's and pretty much left them without even looking (cape fear/ 4 mound dgc). Sometimes its in the best interest of the group and the tourney (speed of play) to let them go.

You're right, I should have said 'a stroke or two', not 'several'.
This does remind me of a good example of when it should be determined, prior the provisional, whether or not throw #1 is 'unplayable'. My only tourney at 4 mounds I threw one into the treeline on Cape Fear, then threw a provisional across the draw for a possible look at 3. I found my first shot deep in the trees, took two throws to get out of the trees, throwing away from the basket. Throw #4 lands me not quite as good as my provisional. Had I chose to not look diligently for throw #1, because my provisional was good, I'd have saved myself a stroke. I ended up in a play-off for 1st with Heath, so clarity of that ruling could have been crucial.

Obviously there are situations where you throw it over the hill and through the trees, and say, there's no freaggin' way I'm finding that!!

[Chuck Kennedy]

Player B-- throw #1 goes 500 ft past the basket. Damn headwind! Provisional throw is a hole-in-two. Does Player B have to look for drive #1?

Technically, yes or it's a courtesy violation (sportsmanship or even "littering"). However, the group has the option to look for the Player B's first throw for at least 3 minutes. If Player B's disc is found, then player B has to play it or declare an Optional Rethrow and then go back to the top of the hill and rethrow from the tee. The provisional cannot be used unless the the original throw was never found (i.e. lost). And it wouldn't be a hole-in-two but hole-in-three due to the Optional Rethrow penalty.

Provisionals can never be thrown based on the possibility the first throw is unplayable, only that it might be lost. If it turns out the first throw is found and the player decides the shot is unplayable, the provisional based on the possibility the disc was lost CANNOT be used. The player must make an Optional Rethrow under the new rules.

[LJ Jubner]

Really happened So I throw and we think it went into the river I throw a provisional and then go look for disc. (In this instance I did not find it) but what if I see it floating in or even on the other side of the river? Haven't I done all the right things?

Really happened at the aforementioned Four Mound *Rattlesnake ridge.
Basically the hole plays uphill 400ft
first third grass fairway low slope
middle third rocks and loose gravel med slope
last third small green lies on edge of 15 ft ledge Pin maybe 25 from edge

So I play my way up the hill past the pin 20 ft . throw my next shot miss and end up right on the ledge There is no safe place to stand and play so I proceed back down to the next safest place meaning I have to renegotiate my way back up the cliff. When I could have in fact just abandoned the disc on the edge and re putt with a one stroke penalty.

Isn't it up to me to decide whether I want to look for my disc for 3 min or not? (I see the reason why it should have a limit) Why can't I just abandon the disc (say I will come back later and look) By not looking Aren't I showing courtesy to the entire field by not slowing down the course?

I am not sure how it's another penalty after all doesn't my score card reflect the accurate score with excepted penalty?

Doesn't a courtsey or littering penalty seem like it's just piling on?

Finally
Do I need my lawyer to review my pre registration before I sign up?
or how about when I turn in my card?


Aren't the two descriptions the same thing.
Optional re throw: back to last spot 1 stoke penalty
Provisional: back to last spot 1 stroke penalty
In my mind the only diference is the time/effort lost on the walk back

* I think I have a pic or two will look and post

[Chuck Kennedy]

You can always declare an Optional Rethrow with penalty anytime. However, the only difference we're talking about is whether you threw a provisional before knowing the status of your original throw. A provisional cannot be converted into an Optional Rethrow because you already know the outcome of the rethrow. In the case a disc actually ends up lost and a provisional was thrown in case it was lost, using the provisional is not actually turning it into an Optional Rethrow but it just becomes the player's third throw. Totally clear, right?

[LJ Jubner]

Originally Posted by Chuck Kennedy

You can always declare an Optional Rethrow with penalty anytime. However, the only difference we're talking about is whether you threw a provisional before knowing the status of your original throw. A provisional cannot be converted into an Optional Rethrow because you already know the outcome of the rethrow. In the case a disc actually ends up lost and a provisional was thrown in case it was lost, using the provisional is not actually turning it into an Optional Rethrow but it just becomes the player's third throw. Totally clear, right?

Originally Posted by Chuck Kennedy

You can always declare an Optional Rethrow with penalty anytime.

That's good If I declare a re throw then the first I do not even need to make the effort to looked for it? I am lying 2 (one out, one back) throwing 3

Originally Posted by Chuck Kennedy

However, the only difference we're talking about is whether you threw a provisional before knowing the status of your original throw.

I get this sort of. Exact status? no. sneaking suspision? yes.

Originally Posted by Chuck Kennedy

A provisional cannot be converted into an Optional Rethrow because you already know the outcome of the rethrow.

I don't see why they can't. Both cost me a stroke

The only differences are:
the time to walk out there
then the time spent looking
(Can others throw before my 3 min start? What if we are looking for more then one disc?)
then the time to walk back to the last spot (by best guess)
then my reasonable amount time before I throw again
then I walk back out. All the while the group behind is thinking WTF? (Hopefully it's only one group)

If I walk back does anyone from my group need to accompany me or is the next waiting group good enough?

What about speed of play for the rest of the group? do they all just stand off to the side and wait till I reappear or can they finish out? How about I join the following group by throwing last. IE they all throw while I am walking back I throw and then we all walk out. So now, they are waiting on their seconds while I finish out and rejoin my group. or we could let them play through?

Bottom line if you throw a shit shot optional rethrow is always the choice to save your round. because it only costs you one stroke.

[Chuck Kennedy]

That's the rule in ball golf and adopted for disc golf. You cannot turn a provisional into your Optional Rethrow IF your original disc is found and you choose not to play it. Only if your original throw ends up OB, lost or above 2m (if that rule is in effect) can you convert a provisional into your Optional Rethrow. The difference, if any of these three possibilities happen versus finding your disc in a terrible location, is that the three aforementioned situations already include a penalty. Finding your disc in a terrible location that isn't currently penalized means you have a choice for taking a penalty or playing it. That's why you cannot use the provisional because its outcome is known before you make an elective decision to accept the penalty and throw again.

[jshrack]

Originally Posted by LJ Jubner

What about speed of play for the rest of the group? do they all just stand off to the side and wait till I reappear or can they finish out? How about I join the following group by throwing last. IE they all throw while I am walking back I throw and then we all walk out. So now, they are waiting on their seconds while I finish out and rejoin my group. or we could let them play through?

Bottom line if you throw a shit shot optional rethrow is always the choice to save your round. because it only costs you one stroke.

Jub, your concept leaves the door open to every player throwing two shots for any lie.

Contrived situatoin:
I play Seatac 18. I throw a decent drive up the fairway but land 20ft behind a tree. I have a full 250-300 left on my upshot and I yank my disc into a tree and it bounces 10ft back into the blackberries.

According to your interpretation, I could throw a provisional:
First possibilty: I park my provisional next to the pin, immediately call the other disc 'un-playable,' and still pull a decent 4 on a wickedly hard hole.
Second possibility: I hit the same tree with my provisional, ricochet into worse position, and decide to just play my first throw since it will save me strokes in the long run.

The current rule makes it so you would have to find your disc and decide at that point not, knowing the outcome of your optional re-throw, if it was in your best interest to call the lie 'un-playable'...