Official Announcement: CSI to split weekends

[dan mc]

Not sure what the arguement is. If it takes you 64 throws to get around seatac it still took 64 stroke regardless of the course being par 54 or 60 if ssa is 55 you still threw 9 strokes over the SSA. so the par doesn't matter more than +4 sounds way better than +10

[D.L.]

Ratings are a derivative function, par is not. Setting ST at par 72 would not change the ratings.

This inanity calls for a lunk, http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/ParGuidelines.pdf
and the lunk has provided a link.

This seems to suggest par means different things to different people.
Just like in bolf. The members play it as a par 5, but for the pros it is a par 4.

No. 7: 447 yards, PAR-4 ("Briars," 4.118, 7th): A PAR-5 for Ridgewood members known as the Cemetery Hole because George Washington Memorial Park borders it, it requires an uphill drive of at least 290 yards to a plateau on a fairway that slopes left to right (toward the cemetery). Anything shorter leaves a blind second shot to a diminutive green for a hole of this length.

They took two holes the members play as par 5s -- the 475-yard 6th and the 466-yard 10th -- and declared them par 4s. etc.

OK? It is left as an exercise to the reader to determine hole-by-hole par.
What determines 'heavy or light' foliage?
What color are the tees? What color are the trees?
Do you need to remove your shoes to count to 12?
Do you understand the difference between an eagle and an ace?
So many questions, sow many seeds, sew mini-skirts, snow many inches.

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/ParGuidelines.pdf

[Rolly]

I agree. Personally I think that you should always challenge yourself. Shooting a 54 at the Tac is a great goal, and something to work for. Shooting a 60 or under is a somewhat decent round for any Gold or Silver player. It seems too easy to raise the the par for those that need to feel better about their game. During a PDGA event ratings are based off of the SSA and the field correct? Not course "par". Somebody please correct me if I'm incorrect. I'm not sure there is an answer for this debate. The way I see it is their are 2 types of golfers those that break 60 and those that don't. I can see some argument why some would want it changed to 60. But really, it's about progessing yourself and your game, and Seatac is all about making you a better golfer. Frankly par shouldn't matter if you are playing for fun, and changing par because the course is tough is for golfers that I personally think don't want to challenge themselves. You play the course and in events play the field, not the par..If you want to change it to 4's great, fine, but that will never make you a better player. It will only give you some artifical feeling of accomplishment for the drive home.

[Skookum]

Originally Posted by LJ Jubner

As course designers now The MC Boys can design and set par to whatever level they want. I will show up, pay, play and whine about how poorly I played not about how par is all screwed up.



"Par has been missed"
thats a good one maybe if you threw farther or putted better or maybe just...

There is a huge difference between tournament stroke play and handicapped stroke play. The real problem is the stupid rating debate. By using a handicap

1. you are already trying to level the field artificially
2. to make your series more attractive competition wise
3. not skill driven like it should be.

I find it interesting that at any Ball golf course you just show up, pay and play. NO mention of what my par should or should not be. Want to have some fun
Go into any Golf Pro shop and tell them par at their course is too low for your game. Know what they would say to you? Maybe some lessons or the pitch and putt around the corner is better suited for your skills.
FYI

1. In Ball golf the average player is 18 over
2. 80% of all ball golfers will never ever break par
3. Realistic goals most want to just break 80

In DG we whine about par. Raise the par at the Tac and you will see a 1200 rated round.

Like Dan said "my personal best is my goal" If it's better than par great if not thats great too. It's still my personal best.

I'm not sure I even know where to start... or if it's even worth it, but as I am snowed in today why not.

First of all the little barb about us MC boy whining. I don't remember saying anything about my play or our performance because this issues has nothing to do with that. I take pride in stepping back from my skill level (sub 900) to look at these thing objectively. I use the math and methods provided by the PDGA to determine the relative strengths and weakness of individual holes and courses. I do not rely on my gut or my score (because i'm terrible). I assure you as a "designer" (I use that term loosely) we did not set par, we created it. We modified our holes till they hit our desired average strokes based on 1000 rated player (our at least tried our best).

As far as handicapping goes, it had zero bearing on the SSA calculations for the event. Handicapping only helps to determine the winner between to players it's does not affect their ability to play (although we may tie one of Crabtrees arms behind his back).

Your ball golf points are a little off. The pars in ball golf are created by a professional designer who crafts the course so that Pro golfers from Blue tee pad score an average that meets the par. Many ball golf course have different pars on the same hole (usually from the womans tees).

You are right ball golfer don't whine about par because the sport is mature enough after all these years that things like par are UNIFORM between courses. A par 4 on this course is equivalent to a par 4 on that course. Not, "Well on our course we call it a par 3" I wonder though if there was a golf course that had a 600 yard par three would player complain? I will have to always wonder because holes like that don't exist, at least not on PGA level courses.

Why even bring ball golf into this as it really speaks more to my points than yours. They use math and science to create balance courses and OMG what is the first question two golfer ask each other when they meet? What is your handicap? As a group they are way more plugged into that stuff than we are.

From a competitive stand point if we want to be taken seriously things like using "par" as word that means the same thing regardless of what course you happen to be standing on at the moment is essential. If we are talking about just going and have fun.... well we wouldn't be having this conversation right now, we'd be golfing.

What if we replaced the word "par" with "SSA" would it make this conversation easier to follow? They are after all the same thing. (please look it up before contesting this point) The SSA at SeaTac is always above 54 by 2-3 even 4 strokes. If I did the math I'm sure 4 of those holes out there have SSAs between 3.7 and 4.3 or higher. Making the SSA on 4 of the holes at SeaTac SSA 4 (rounded to nearest whole number). These are FACTS objective based on reality facts to dispute them is to seem a crazy person.

[KG_MCDGC]

Originally Posted by Skookum

What if we replaced the word "par" with "SSA" would it make this conversation easier to follow? They are after all the same thing. (please look it up before contesting this point) The SSA at SeaTac is always above 54 by 2-3 even 4 strokes. If I did the math I'm sure 4 of those holes out there have SSAs between 3.7 and 4.3 or higher. Making the SSA on 4 of the holes at SeaTac SSA 4 (rounded to nearest whole number). These are FACTS objective based on reality facts to dispute them is to seem a crazy person.

The nerd has spoken; Calculations Rule Everything Around Me, C.R.E.A.M. Get the money, dolla dolla bills ya'll...

But, for real, good debate. Better thread jack.

[sillybizz]

Sam? We need a "like" button on this site! posts 45 and 44 qualify.

[REDFIVE]

WHAT? CSI is splitting weekends, crazy.

[LJ Jubner]

As far as I know Guy and I am the only TD's to offer on the tee signs the avg Score for 5 divisions and how each holes is handicapped (14,17,18 being hardest 1,5,10 being easiest) since 2006

Originally Posted by Skookum

First of all the little barb about us MC boy whining. I don't remember saying anything about my play or our performance because this issues has nothing to do with that. I take pride in stepping back from my skill level (sub 900) to look at these thing objectively. I use the math and methods provided by the PDGA to determine the relative strengths and weakness of individual holes and courses. I do not rely on my gut or my score (because i'm terrible). I assure you as a "designer" (I use that term loosely) we did not set par, we created it. We modified our holes till they hit our desired average strokes based on 1000 rated player (our at least tried our best). .

I was speaking about myself when I said "whining" and it was about my play not the course layout or what par is. Yes, (As you are designing your holes) Par is what you make it and based on whatever criteria you choose to employ. When SeaTac was built the pDGA criteria was not available. Not that it's a bible... I am just not sure how we ever survived before 2005

Originally Posted by Skookum

As far as handicapping goes, it had zero bearing on the SSA calculations for the event. Handicapping only helps to determine the winner between to players it's does not affect their ability to play (although we may tie one of Crabtrees arms behind his back).
...From a competitive stand point if we want to be taken seriously things like using "par" as word that means the same thing regardless of what course you happen to be standing on at the moment is essential. If we are talking about just going and have fun.... well we wouldn't be having this conversation right now, we'd be golfing.

Handicapping makes it so two different skill levels can play against each other and have the scores be somewhat close at the end. And Yes both groups are equally as rabid when it comes to competition

My suggestion for kyle is make him play either super class or lids

Side note to play in a P.G.A. event you need to be a scratch (par) or better player

Originally Posted by Skookum

Your ball golf points are a little off. The pars in ball golf are created by a professional designer who crafts the course so that Pro golfers from Blue tee pad score an average that meets the par. Many ball golf course have different pars on the same hole (usually from the womans tees).

You are right ball golfer don't whine about par because the sport is mature enough after all these years that things like par are UNIFORM between courses. A par 4 on this course is equivalent to a par 4 on that course. Not, "Well on our course we call it a par 3" I wonder though if there was a golf course that had a 600 yard par three would player complain? I will have to always wonder because holes like that don't exist, at least not on PGA level courses.

Why even bring ball golf into this as it really speaks more to my points than yours. They use math and science to create balance courses and OMG what is the first question two golfer ask each other when they meet? What is your handicap? As a group they are way more plugged into that stuff than we are.
.

The only difference between us and Fazio, Nicklaus or Ross design is someone paid them to build it. Either group tries to design something that is
Feasible, aesthetically pleasing and fits the terrain. the bigger budgets actually move dirt around.

Actually handicap is #3
What the course record? is #1
and
Where is the first tee is #2

The variance you speak of is more likely addressed by the type of Ball golf course and it's not more then 2-3 strokes.

Pitch and Putt:

1. Par threes
2. and at the longest 250 yds
3. normally only 9 holes 2000 yds.
4. one set of tees.
5. pretty simple greens
6. no rough
7. no hazards
8. 3-4 clubs + putter
9. Walked

Executive:

1. Either 9 or 18
2. ]maybe one 5* and even number of 3's and 4's (*for 9 maybe two 5's for 18) Longest hole (either 4 or 5) 400 YDS.
3. Built by design to have fast play.
4. 9 as little as 2700 to 6000 for 18.
5. Two sets of tees
6. maybe tougher greens to lengthen the course
7. a few hazards.
8. moderate rough
9. Full bag of irons and maybe a 3 or 4 wood.
10. Walk or ride

Municipal:

1. Full length 6800+
2. Even number of 3's,4's and 5's on each side. usually one 5 and three 3 the rest 4.
3. Multiple tees and distances but still same par/hole.
4. Tough greens
5. plenty of hazards
6. plenty of rough
7. Full bag
8. Walk or ride

* Someday's Tees are back, some days the move up one or two spots (normally determined only by maintenance issues IE heavy play)

Resort: Same as Municipal but in a better location and higher fees. I take shoes, gloves, balls and tees. I rent clubs Definitely ride

T.P.C. Tournament Players Club or P.G.A. type courses

1. Monster 3's
2. once in awhile a short 5 (for members) is made into a long 4 for the touring pros.
3. Hardest greens
4. hazards force players to work around them.
5. Rough that covers your shoes
6. Full bag
7. Definitely ride

[BigBubbBelly]

Since Im who I am, can I have it set to par 6? Ferguson is a pretty tough course for me. Youve all seen me throw, so I think I can reasonably ask for this. What do you say Tom?

[sillybizz]

Damn Jesse, you're rated higher than I am! If you get par 6 then I get par 6 1/2. This is what we need more 1/2 stroke pars.

[papatart]

Wheee! It has been forever since I have posted on any thread and this one is the winner.

I am a total supporter of courses being labeled to what a par should truly be (and I will get it out of the way and say that to me, SeaTac is NOT a par 54 course but either a par 59 or 60, I don't know the stats well enough). I have to say that I am a fan of this because I want to see course designers starting to think about designing holes that take two or three shots to reach the "green". If a course has the room, then gone should be the days of thinking about how to design yet another hole that is reachable off the drive. I love holes that take great drives and excellent second (and sometimes third) shots to give the person a look at the basket. To me, this is where the fun really is.

Here is where I get to say "super huge kudos" to the group that painstakingly designed the excellent course we know as Shelton Springs. With true par 4 and par 5 holes, this course rocks. Why are they true par 4 and 5? Because it takes two or three quality shots to reach the basket and give you birdie opportunities. Can you eagle the par 4's and 5's? Sure, but it isn't easy.

I am just trying to say that if we have room at parks (like SeaTac and Shelton Springs) there is no reason not to try and design holes that are not reachable in one shot. They don't need to be 700 feet to be par 4 (I played a par 4 at Highbridge that was about 250', and a legitimate par 4) but they need to be designed to be a hole that will take two well executed shots to reach and is basically unreachable in one. It can be done.

As a last note for SeaTac, I actually walked the course with Herm when he was still about and the course was in it's early incantation. He asked me to come out to design a second set of teepads like I had at NAD to utilize the same fairways, yet totally change the shots. If these had been put in, there would have been two layouts at SeaTac using the same design, but neither of them would have been the course that is played now. All of the tees that are in use now would still be used, but some for the "easy course" and some for the "hard course". The thought was to have a more friendly par 3 type of course and also a totally challenging par ? course. I still wish to this day that those pads could have gone in.....

Also, he asked about the course itself and changes that I would make if I could. If anyone remembers the old course, holes 14 and 16 use to be shorter. They were the old, boring "3.5" type of holes where if you threw a drive that went 250' or 400', you were still getting a three with a basic upshot. But once the pins were moved back, now that short drive either takes the thought of a three out, or you must make a miraculous shot/putt to still get a three. But those holes are now definite par 4 holes thanks to some added distance. I'm not saying that "distance equal better" but it did work for those holes. We also talked about the possibility of clearing much more (yes, much more) behind pin 12 and trying to get to a par 5 on that hole..........

So while I enjoy deuce or die courses (RIP Riverside Red) I still love the challenge, both mentally and physically, of courses that have par 4 and 5 holes. Long live Shelton Springs and SeaTac (and maybe even Dalaiwood in the long setting, heeheehee)

Later,
Papa

[Bullseye]

Originally Posted by papatart

Wheee! It has been forever since I have posted on any thread and this one is the winner.

I am a total supporter of courses being labeled to what a par should truly be (and I will get it out of the way and say that to me, SeaTac is NOT a par 54 course but either a par 59 or 60, I don't know the stats well enough). I have to say that I am a fan of this because I want to see course designers starting to think about designing holes that take two or three shots to reach the "green". If a course has the room, then gone should be the days of thinking about how to design yet another hole that is reachable off the drive. I love holes that take great drives and excellent second (and sometimes third) shots to give the person a look at the basket. To me, this is where the fun really is.

Here is where I get to say "super huge kudos" to the group that painstakingly designed the excellent course we know as Shelton Springs. With true par 4 and par 5 holes, this course rocks. Why are they true par 4 and 5? Because it takes two or three quality shots to reach the basket and give you birdie opportunities. Can you eagle the par 4's and 5's? Sure, but it isn't easy.

I am just trying to say that if we have room at parks (like SeaTac and Shelton Springs) there is no reason not to try and design holes that are not reachable in one shot. They don't need to be 700 feet to be par 4 (I played a par 4 at Highbridge that was about 250', and a legitimate par 4) but they need to be designed to be a hole that will take two well executed shots to reach and is basically unreachable in one. It can be done.

As a last note for SeaTac, I actually walked the course with Herm when he was still about and the course was in it's early incantation. He asked me to come out to design a second set of teepads like I had at NAD to utilize the same fairways, yet totally change the shots. If these had been put in, there would have been two layouts at SeaTac using the same design, but neither of them would have been the course that is played now. All of the tees that are in use now would still be used, but some for the "easy course" and some for the "hard course". The thought was to have a more friendly par 3 type of course and also a totally challenging par ? course. I still wish to this day that those pads could have gone in.....

Also, he asked about the course itself and changes that I would make if I could. If anyone remembers the old course, holes 14 and 16 use to be shorter. They were the old, boring "3.5" type of holes where if you threw a drive that went 250' or 400', you were still getting a three with a basic upshot. But once the pins were moved back, now that short drive either takes the thought of a three out, or you must make a miraculous shot/putt to still get a three. But those holes are now definite par 4 holes thanks to some added distance. I'm not saying that "distance equal better" but it did work for those holes. We also talked about the possibility of clearing much more (yes, much more) behind pin 12 and trying to get to a par 5 on that hole..........

So while I enjoy deuce or die courses (RIP Riverside Red) I still love the challenge, both mentally and physically, of courses that have par 4 and 5 holes. Long live Shelton Springs and SeaTac (and maybe even Dalaiwood in the long setting, heeheehee)

Later,
Papa

How dare you disagree with Jubmeister. What the hell do YOU know anyway?


Heh. Kidding. I agree completely.

[Lund]

My favorite is when someone just has to know what the "par" is on a particular hole before teeing off, cause it determines how they play the hole i.e. how risky they have to be. I have seen this happen many times. In tournaments. A lot of times this occurs on a hole that has traditionally been "called" a par 3 cause that was the only option when the course went in but now some TDs change the hole par for a tournament. One example from down here where this happens all the time is on the long hole at Timber (the hole formerly known as #17). Invariably when we get to the tee someone says,

"$h^& does anyone know if they called this a 3 or a 4 today?"

"Uh not sure. I don't think it matters really, there are gonna be more 4's than 3's for sure."

Momentary silence, mostly blank stare (presumably thinking about the "doesn't matter" part).

"Crap, does the scorecard say?"

"No"

"Well I'm just gonna assume its a 3 then, and bomb my drive down past the pole." Throw OB.

OR

"Well I gotta keep this bogey free round growing." Throw OB

Then when the hole is done, the icing on the cake (as far as comedic value goes):

"Man that better be a par 4."

This scene has played out a lot in tournament groups in my experience. Other holes where I remember similar conversations (Milo hole 1 of 27, Trojan regular hole 5, Hornings Meadow horseshoe hole...)

[LJ Jubner]

Thanks for articulating the point Scott

I want to say this now I am not opposed to 4's and 5's just not at Seatac or at least it's current setup.

I can offer that over the last few years SeaTac has been "a try and get ahead of it project". Now that the transition period is happining the new group is organizing " as to finally get a handle on the TAC". Their efforts should be more than aplauded they should be attended.

There is talk about a third 9 that could include holes that are 4's and 5's. I would be totally fine with that.

The two holes 14,16 were moved only because players actually birdied them. I thought 14 should have stayed where it was. The current pin is exposed to drives from 16 (to my knowlege 5 players have been hit in Tournament play on this part of the course). In the first two or three CSI/Pats I offered a Temp basket for these two holes on Sat. AM 14 short , PM 16 short. There is some talk about either "planting to protect" the current 14 or moving it 75 ft back down the walking trail towards the 15 tee.

I really don't see any room for 12 to move back. A blind shot over last established public access trail at that end of the course seems risky.

Attachment
this is info from 2005-09 maybe 300 rounds each winter/ summer
First line hole numbers
second line Winter handicap 1 hardest 18 easiest
third line winter scoring average
forth line summer handicap 1 hardest 18 easiest
last line summer scoring average

[LJ Jubner]

Mods is it possible to chop this two headed thread into just that two threads? It's pretty obvious where each starts and are vital discussions that should each go forward separately. Thanks

[LJ Jubner]

next update on Sunday Feb 27th

Keep those registrations coming the Open weekend is only a month away.

[olydiscgolf]

Originally Posted by LJ Jubner

next update on Sunday Feb 27th

Keep those registrations coming the Open weekend is only a month away.

Start your own thread Jub! This one is about par!

[LJ Jubner]

I would but silly will whine about the forth active CSI thread

[sillybizz]

Yeah CSI threads are a Par 3, if you made one more you would get a bogey.

[LakeStevensBA]

I would also like to hijack this thread.

So, are the paved trails at Silver Lake always out of bounds?