Dyed Discs

[Will of Doom]

Originally Posted by whalekillah

I have seen two of those dye jobs on the course. The eagle (on an Eagle)and the tribal spiral on (a spider). I could be wrong but, I think Will was showing off the Spider today. Great looking dyes.

Yes I was. Loving that disc, esp with the dye job on it

[Kris C]

Yep, awesome discs run.
Can dye be "used up" so it no longer has enough potency to dye a disc?

[ChUcK]

Originally Posted by Kris C

So I have a DX Aviar thats been sitting in the dye (black) for 2 days now, and still has almost no color at all. It's a batch of dye that I've used before (the Hawaiian God disc above). I've dyed a couple other DX discs that took color just fine. I've had it warm most of the time. I turn the stove off when it feels too hot. Any ideas as to why this is happening?

At first I thought you had blue vinyl on a white Dx Aviar, but now I see that the disc is blue and the vinyl is taking the Rit just fine. I don't know what to say except Dx is lame for dyeing. I tried to dye Dx and KC Pro stuff a long time ago and gave it up after a couple of similar attempts to yours.

Originally Posted by Kris C

Can dye be "used up" so it no longer has enough potency to dye a disc?

I have no idea how long it takes Rit to break down into something other than dye. I guess it must, due to exposure to oxygen and heat, but I don't think it is something to worry about. I used the same box of black Rit for over a year of dyeing at least one disc a day, and the only problem I ever had was that the water in the pot would evaporate over time, so I just added a little more whenever necessary. Never did I add more dye in that year, and eventually I just had to throw it out because I was moving apartments and pans full o' black Rit death don't handle the moving process very well.

If you do the same, make sure you have a good stainless steel pot, because Tim tried the same thing in a thin aluminum pot and the dyebath ate right through the metal.

Short answer, you had better be dyeing a whole ton of plastic if you want to use up all the dye in a box of Rit (depending upon the amount that your process wastes with each dip.)

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Kris C

So I have a DX Aviar thats been sitting in the dye (black) for 2 days now, and still has almost no color at all. It's a batch of dye that I've used before (the Hawaiian God disc above). I've dyed a couple other DX discs that took color just fine. I've had it warm most of the time. I turn the stove off when it feels too hot. Any ideas as to why this is happening?

Typically, DX doesn't dye well. Not sure why you had success before, but your most recent experience is more the norm.

[Tim]

Originally Posted by ChUcK

If you do the same, make sure you have a good stainless steel pot, because Tim tried the same thing in a thin aluminum pot and the dyebath ate right through the metal.

That pot was steel, cheap and thin, yes, but stainless steel nonetheless.

[Kris C]

I keep my dye in a milk jug and pour it into the pot when I dye and then put it back. I added a little acetone to the pot of dye, and it helped VERY little.

[ChUcK]

I stand corrected. Whatever stainless steel pan you use, make sure it passes the burglar thought experiment test. If -upon smacking the pan against a burglar's head- you are more worried about the condition of the pan than the burglar's skull, it should not be used.

[Ol' Bob]

I have seen even fruit juice eat through stainless. I write it off as an impurity in the steel, as it happens in just one tiny place over a large, otherwise, unaffected area.

I believe that lamp black/carbon black is still the main black pigment over the ages. The best pigments of most colors are the ones that endure over time. Since a few molecules go a long way when spread only a molecule or two thick, I'd think those batches of dye long lived when doing surfaces other than fabric.

[Kris C]

"Tim tried the same thing in a thin aluminum pot and the dyebath ate right through the metal."

What a MESS!!!

[Burge]

Look at your picture, Kris, the water is beading up on the disc. DX and Pro are particularly hydrophobic and Rit is a 'direct dye' that is 'water-soluble' and, hence, has a problem with getting into the plastic. In reality, the actual dye never goes into a true solution because the color is carried as small particles caught between groups of water molecules and is never really solubilized. Adding acetone to the water helps 'open' the plastic by loosening the polymerized chains enough to allow the particles of color to become lodged in between (much like in fabric, which is what Rit was really designed for). Increasing your acetone concentration can get you better results, but even though acetone is miscible in water, it will still evaporate out of the solution as it is heated. It can be hard to tell just from the smell if there is still some in the water because the smell of the vapors will linger in the air, and the nose, for a while after it is gone from the solution. That's why people get different results with DX. But, putting in too much acetone can have adverse affects on the plastic, and subsequently the shape, of the disc.

I once traded someone a Pro Beast for a Pro monster and wanted to remove the sharpie marker scribbling doodle dye job that was on the top, ('monster' face) and it wouldn't all come off with isoproponol. So, after wiping the hell out of it acetone, I put it in a gallon ziploc (which are impervious to acetone) and then filled it with acetone and left for a few minutes. No change. After checking on it several times over a few hours, I decided to leave it in overnight. Bad idea. By morning, the flight plate had expanded, while the rim had not, making the disc look like a giant bottle cap! It was freaky lookin'. The disc 'dried out' after about a week and the flight plate actually shrank and changed the overall angle of attack on the wing of the disc such that it flew unpredictably...beyond understable. Nothing like a Monster.

The other way to get better results with Rit, is to actually grind it up farther with a mortar and pestle, but this requires gloves, a mask, a high quality porcelain mortar and pestle, and patience because it must be done slowly so as not to make a big cloud of dust. In other words...not recommended.

Rit also has to be in a slightly alkaline or neutral solution, never acidic, and always near boiling point, to work. Rit also contains salt to help attract the dye particles to organic fibers. Boiling down an acidic salt solution, increasing its concentration, and then leaving it in the pot and heating it up again is going to break down the metal.

[Kris C]

So the acetone helped. The image never turned black, but it was a dark gray, so that's alright. Thanks for all your help guys.

[Kris C]

1 more question: If your image has a VERY fine line, what is the best way to cut it? What happens if you just make a single line cut in the vinyl? Will you get a fine line, or will it bleed? Or do I need to cut out the thinnest strip of vinyl possible to get a fine line?

[TYVEK]

Originally Posted by Kris C

1 more question: If your image has a VERY fine line, what is the best way to cut it? What happens if you just make a single line cut in the vinyl? Will you get a fine line, or will it bleed? Or do I need to cut out the thinnest strip of vinyl possible to get a fine line?

you can get fine lines by making a single cut in the vinyl, but i have found that sometimes the vinyl closes up in spots so you dont get a full line. what i have done to fight that is to spread the vinyl just slightly after i put it on the disc. this works good for me.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Burge

I once traded someone a Pro Beast for a Pro monster and wanted to remove the sharpie marker scribbling doodle dye job that was on the top, ('monster' face) and it wouldn't all come off with isoproponol. So, after wiping the hell out of it acetone, I put it in a gallon ziploc (which are impervious to acetone) and then filled it with acetone and left for a few minutes. No change. After checking on it several times over a few hours, I decided to leave it in overnight. Bad idea. By morning, the flight plate had expanded, while the rim had not, making the disc look like a giant bottle cap! It was freaky lookin'. The disc 'dried out' after about a week and the flight plate actually shrank and changed the overall angle of attack on the wing of the disc such that it flew unpredictably...beyond understable. Nothing like a Monster.

I did almost the exact same thing with a Champion Monster. After a friend put a sick dye on it, I didn't like how my name and number showed through the flight plate. Dabbing with acetone faded it, but didn't remove it, so I turned the disc upside down, filled it with acetone, and let it sit overnight.
Like you said - bad idea. Sharpie was gone, but disc is unthrowable.

[Burge]

Here's how you can increase your chances at success with Rit:

1. Start with distilled water: Since local tap water varies widely from place to place, and you need a neutral to mildly alkaline solution, distilled is the easiest way to start from zero--actually, 7.0 or 'neutral' pH. It also eliminates the possibility of mineral content which can hinder the dying process.

2. Slightly increase the alkalinity of your solution: This can be as simple as adding a small amount of sodium bicarbonate (orange box, in the kitchen, white powder, not blowunless you're buying really cheap blow). About a teaspoon should do the trick for the average dye 'vat'. Adding more is not necessary and if your solution is too alkaline, the water can't 'carry' the dye. There are other household items that would make your water more alkaline (bleach, sodium hydroxide), but these can, and will, release toxic fumes into the air when heated--which brings us to the last part...

3. Stay near boiling point: While 'dying' a disc, use a thermometer to stay above 200F(90C), or just keep your pot at a slight simmer. Since you will have evaporation loss at constant temp, make a little scratch at the starting fluid level, of whatever concoction you've decided to go with, so that you can add distilled water as the level goes down. Constant temp will find any weak spots on your masked edge, so be sure to thoroughly burnish down the edges of your design.

Following these simple guidelines will ensure that, whatever dye job you're up to, your dye will be at it's best. Good luck, and, keep dippin'!

[TYVEK]

Originally Posted by Burge

3. Stay near boiling point: While 'dying' a disc, use a thermometer to stay above 200F(90C), or just keep your pot at a slight simmer. Since you will have evaporation loss at constant temp, make a little scratch at the starting fluid level, of whatever concoction you've decided to go with, so that you can add distilled water as the level goes down. Constant temp will find any weak spots on your masked edge, so be sure to thoroughly burnish down the edges of your design.

I always enjoy reading your posts on dyeing because they come from a more scientific stand point, but i would not suggest keeping the dye at the temperatures that you suggest. i have had 2 discs warped from the dye being too hot and also had a few discs that the dye sort of "burns" the disc and causes it to discolor and do funky things with any sort of bubbles that might form in an attempt to boil.

if your dye is close to the boiling point then when you place your disc in the dye it displaces some of the water/dye so that the amount of liquid between the disc and bottom of pan is less. with that being the case the liquid will start simmering or boiling because there is less liquid to heat up directly under the disc. i watched one guy pull his disc out of the dye and it looked like the surface of the moon. the bubbles from the boiling dye made weird circles on the disc so it looked like craters.

i always heat up my dye until it is steaming nicely then wait 5-10 minutes before i put the disc in now. and i have never had any more problems and the dye sets just fine in most plastics. if a person is patient enough you dont even have to heat up the dye, it just takes a day or two for each color.

[ChUcK]

Burge, is your information based upon theory or experience?

[Tim]

Originally Posted by TYVEK

i would not suggest keeping the dye at the temperatures that you suggest. i have had 2 discs warped from the dye being too hot and also had a few discs that the dye sort of "burns" the disc and causes it to discolor and do funky things with any sort of bubbles that might form in an attempt to boil.

Yeah, I've seen more than a couple "toasted marshmallows" due to people keeping the dye too hot.

[Burge]

Originally Posted by ChUcK

Burge, is your information based upon theory or experience?

I've dyed more fabric than discs, but what I'm telling you this is the chemical reality of Rit. My strong suggestion is that you keep the water around 180-200F as this is where the dye 'sets' into the material. This is more important for those dying DX, Pro-D and other plastics that don't want to accept direct dyes like Rit, but not so critical for clear plastics as these have a 'lattice' polymeric structure, providing plenty of places for the dye particles to become trapped. Letting a disc rest on the bottom while boiling is going to give you areas of temperature far beyond 212. That's why the one anecdotal individual had 'craters of the moon'--the steam bubbles forming on the bottom are well within the range of the melting point of the plastic. Plus, direct contact with the bottom of the pan is going to transfer heat into the disc through conduction, bypassing the buffer of convection that water provides. I made a little tripod out of chopsticks and silicone rubber bands to keep discs from touching the bottom and it worked pretty well.

[ChUcK]

Despite all the valuable vocabulary, I'm still calling shenanigans on your dye recommendations. The actions you are telling people to take are in direct opposition to what I have seen and felt with my own bare Xactos.