Changes to High Bridge

[Evil T]

I am going to throw this out there, and then you guys can tell me how I am wrong. The recent changes to High Bridge seem to benefit players of a higher caliber. Almost all ace run holes have been eliminated. I understand some of the pro players would like a more challenging course, but we are a community of disc golf players. You don't gear your course for your top 10%. Even us terrible ams like to get a birdie now and then.

Some examples of baskets that were changed:

4. Could be an ok hole, but needs to be cleaned up a lot. Also people leaving 4's basket now have to walk across the fair way to get to 5 slowing the game down more.

5. Was tough before, but with the tee box farther back is ridiculous. Also a hole that needs so cleaning. Too many little trees and branches. Also in it's previous location it was a possible ace. I know it had to be moved because of the road, but it didn't have to become one of the hardest holes.

6. Just a mess. Too many trees to get through, and when the bushes start growing in it will be terrible.

8. That tee box farther back is crazy. You truly have to thread the needle.

10. Don't have a problem with the length, but it's in the wrong location. Again we are walking for some time through the fairway to get to 11. Off to the left by the road would have been better. Also 10 needs to be cleaned up. You can have a great drive and just not have a route to the basket.

13. Not a terrible hole, but I always liked the chance of hit the old basket. Even ball golf has easy par 3s every now and then. Needs to be cleaned up also.

17. Should be moved back.

Also, many of the new baskets are also gonna need some maintenance once everything starts growing in. I have no problem helping out in this regard, but don't want to start cutting trees and bushes down without some approval.

Another idea is instead of changing all the holes you could have alternate tee pads. It could then be two different courses with two different skill levels. If we want to keep this sport growing we need to consider the skill level of the recreational players. Some of these players are the future of the sport, and the ones spending money on new merchandise. If we want more courses, more players wouldn't hurt.

Now here's where you guys tell me I am wrong. Do your best.

[Sky Pilot]

Dear Evil T,

I see it as more challenging as well. However, these are 'alternate' pin placements and the old ones will periodically be revisited.
On another note we must keep in mind that this is not our land. We are 'under' the Parks Department and do not have to pay a 'land use fee' as some courses do.
We have an edict from the Park Dept. that we are not to cut trees or bushes, so you may have good point about what to do about the undergrowth. Should something absolutely need to be done about the 'living things' in the parks we would need to seek an 'exception' from Parks. They, however, are not obligated to grant it.
As Mr. Bressler our Parks Operation Manager recently said, "Don't F%#$ with the land!"
So, we have to work with them not against them. Please leave any 'clearing' to the SDGA board official work parties.
Thanks for playing. I hope I run into you sometime and we can talk further.

I'm hoping that some of the more difficult holes will bring my game up to a new level. I've already almost birdied hole #9 in the new position several times.

Check out People's Park and see what type of course you would like to see in that area. They offered it to the SDGA recently when I was in a meeting with 3 park officials. We have a bucket course there now and you can find a map of it on this forum.

Blessings,

Sky Pilot
Jeff Crum
Steward

[Parks]

Originally Posted by Evil T

I am going to throw this out there, and then you guys can tell me how I am wrong. The recent changes to High Bridge seem to benefit players of a higher caliber. Almost all ace run holes have been eliminated.

The only ace run hole to have been eliminated was 5, which was by necessity (city won't let us throw across the road). In fact, one has been added (hole 7 short position), and one has been made easier due to teepad location (hole 1 short)

Originally Posted by Evil T

I understand some of the pro players would like a more challenging course, but we are a community of disc golf players. You don't gear your course for your top 10%. Even us terrible ams like to get a birdie now and then.

I think you're missing the point of challenging holes. They are not for the top 10% that can shoot well under par, but for the 70% of players that are looking to improve their game and become better disc golfers. Note that this 70% contributes almost 100% of the money for new courses and course improvement.

Originally Posted by Evil T

Some examples of baskets that were changed:

4. Could be an ok hole, but needs to be cleaned up a lot. Also people leaving 4's basket now have to walk across the fair way to get to 5 slowing the game down more.

4's alt isn't a great hole, but not for the reasons you are suggesting. 20 seconds walking across a fairway to get to another hole isn't a big deal, but a minute walking back the whole length of a fairway is.

Originally Posted by Evil T

5. Was tough before, but with the tee box farther back is ridiculous. Also a hole that needs so cleaning. Too many little trees and branches. Also in it's previous location it was a possible ace. I know it had to be moved because of the road, but it didn't have to become one of the hardest holes.

This hole is a little thick right now, but most new holes start out that way. As the hole gets used over time, the fairway becomes more well-defined.

Originally Posted by Evil T

6. Just a mess. Too many trees to get through, and when the bushes start growing in it will be terrible.

Yes, this placement is largely a lucky hole, and it can punish shots off by 6 inches just as bad as shots by 100 feet. The SDGA's facilities coordinator has a good solution for this, though it is only in the discussion phase at this point.

Originally Posted by Evil T

8. That tee box farther back is crazy. You truly have to thread the needle.

There is a completely fair gap on the left (15 feet wide at a range of 30 feet?), and an even wider gap on the right if you can throw a bit higher and shape your line. This teebox wasn't moved simply because of the fact that the old hole was essentially a gimme birdie for a righy sidearm or thumber. It was moved because it pools with water any time it is wet and becomes unsafe. We will eventually add long-term fixes for this by slightly raising teeboxes a half inch or so and compacting gravel under them so they remain flat and drain properly.

Originally Posted by Evil T

10. Don't have a problem with the length, but it's in the wrong location. Again we are walking for some time through the fairway to get to 11. Off to the left by the road would have been better. Also 10 needs to be cleaned up. You can have a great drive and just not have a route to the basket.

This has some merit, but we are not allowed to clear more routes. Also, off to the left is mostly too open and would make it either just a hole for big arms or a boring approach for people that couldn't reach the pin. I do like the hairy green on the alt placement, as it makes you play golf rather than just running everything.

Originally Posted by Evil T

13. Not a terrible hole, but I always liked the chance of hit the old basket. Even ball golf has easy par 3s every now and then. Needs to be cleaned up also.

This hole is actually fantastic in the alt position, while the old position was just a layup and a putt. Ball golf has easy par threes, and High Bridge still has them all over the place. Old 13 was the equivalent to a 70 yard ball golf hole, which ball golfers would also find ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Evil T

17. Should be moved back.

You didn't give a reason. That being said, the pin will be alternated when the rest of the course is alternated. I think every 3 months was the initial time frame, but we might wait for the vegetation around the old pins to grow back a little more.

Originally Posted by Evil T

Also, many of the new baskets are also gonna need some maintenance once everything starts growing in. I have no problem helping out in this regard, but don't want to start cutting trees and bushes down without some approval.

The SDGA will schedule work/maintenance parties as needed. Do not attempt to trim anything, as messing with the land is the #1 way to get our courses pulled.

Originally Posted by Evil T

Another idea is instead of changing all the holes you could have alternate tee pads. It could then be two different courses with two different skill levels. If we want to keep this sport growing we need to consider the skill level of the recreational players. Some of these players are the future of the sport, and the ones spending money on new merchandise. If we want more courses, more players wouldn't hurt.

This is all true. The only thing holding it back is funding and intelligent course design.

[Evil T]

I guess I can just see a trend beginning. Besides 7 what hole was changed in the favor of the recreational/amateur player. Also to be honest 7 has that temporary feel to it. Doomed like 13.

I agree there is a percentage of people that want to improve their game. The course had holes for them to do that.

I just think we are heading in the wrong direction with High Bridge. I don't have a problem with challenging holes, but they don't all have to be a challenge. To grow this sport we are gonna need people that feel welcome and comfortable on the disc golf course.

[Parks]

Originally Posted by Evil T

To grow this sport we are gonna need people that feel welcome and comfortable on the disc golf course.

I absolutely agree.

The SDGA does not have a monopoly on disc golf in Spokane.

Why don't you find a bunch of like-minded recreational/amateur players and start a club with the goal of making easier courses on plots of land that aren't suitable for challenging courses?

I bet you could find a lot of schools and communities with local parks that would be happy to support you in such endeavors.

[Eric whippet Brown]

I know eagle ridge has ace run holes or easy easy par 3's most of the holes are a lil bit longer than 13 in the short position. We will move baskets back and forth to try and keep everyone happy, but the course is going to stay challenging. Maybe down the road when we get peoples park developed we can make that a pitch and putt and wide open holes, so we don't discourage all the new players. Just kidding about the pitch and putt, we don't need one of those, but it sounds like we might with the changes to highbridge affecting the newbies. I like the fact that I really have to try and throw better to get a 8-10 under score.

[Wobbly Bob]

If we could figure out some way to get player scorecards turned in to the club, I could figure out what the World Class Par is for Pro players and then figure out what Par is for our Am players.

I would also be able to figure out PDGA local ratings for those players that are not PDGA members. This might solve the not enough Pros for the Pro/Am weekly tournaments by allowing the TD to split the players into two groups using the local players ratings.

If there is any interest in doing this all we need to do is start collecting individual scorecards with the following info on them;

• Player's Name
• Player's PDGA# (if a member & current)
• Course Name
• Hole by hole scores

The more cards that are turned in, the more accurate the figures will be.

We could use the donation box at Downriver as a scorecard collection point.

[Adam Schneider]

Originally Posted by Parks

The SDGA does not have a monopoly on disc golf in Spokane.

Why don't you find a bunch of like-minded recreational/amateur players and start a club with the goal of making easier courses on plots of land that aren't suitable for challenging courses?

So you're saying the mission of the SDGA does not include helping to establish beginner-friendly courses in the Spokane area? Do you speak for the whole club? If so, they ought to be up front about that. And if so, that comes across as selfish and cliquey.

[Sky Pilot]

Originally Posted by Wobbly Bob

If we could figure out some way to get player scorecards turned in to the club, I could figure out what the World Class Par is for Pro players and then figure out what Par is for our Am players.

I would also be able to figure out PDGA local ratings for those players that are not PDGA members. This might solve the not enough Pros for the Pro/Am weekly tournaments by allowing the TD to split the players into two groups using the local players ratings.

If there is any interest in doing this all we need to do is start collecting individual scorecards with the following info on them;

• Player's Name
• Player's PDGA# (if a member & current)
• Course Name
• Hole by hole scores

The more cards that are turned in, the more accurate the figures will be.

We could use the donation box at Downriver as a scorecard collection point.

I sometimes see a player playing Pro one week and Am the next. It is also sometimes disconcerting when two people that 'I' consider to be 'Pro' playing together as AM and PRO. I would be in favor of a way that would make doubles more fair to everyone. Is it possible to do handicap doubles? I know it's 'random' to some extent on the draw but maybe there's something else we could try. On the other hand, truthfully, I'm not complaining when I get the best pro player on my side like I did in the LCO Doubles. We ended up 14 down. : )

Sky Pilot
Steward

[Eric whippet Brown]

What makes a course beginner friendly? Wide fairways and short holes? What kind of distance do we need to make it easier and challenging? Its pretty hard to make a course short when u have land like we have to work with. I suppose peoples park should be our lil beginner course then after you master shorter holes come over to the PRO highbridge layout? I want to add alt pins to downriver so should I make some of those holes shorter? I started playing at downriver when I first started playing and it was tough I got over how hard it was and now I'm a better player, I think if a holes to far for a person, move ahead of the tee and practice from there.

[Evil T]

Like minded, huh? Well I'm glad I signed up for the SDGA now.

Personally, I don't have a huge problem with High Bridge. My 67 year old father might (yes he plays). My 9 year old nephew might (trying to learn). My friends from work might. I don't wanna tell them this course isn't for you anymore. Go play Eagle Ridge.

Also if Eagle Ridge is so wonderful why isn't it even listed on this forum. Cause it's not wonderful. It's a joke of a course, a pain to get to, and they don't want you there. They put up signs to tell ya. Actually I don't consider Eagle Ridge an accurate representation of disc golf. I don't think I would still be playing if that was where I learned to throw.

And why does High Bridge have to be a pro course. For the 19 pros in the area?

[Parks]

Originally Posted by Adam Schneider

So you're saying the mission of the SDGA does not include helping to establish beginner-friendly courses in the Spokane area? Do you speak for the whole club? If so, they ought to be up front about that. And if so, that comes across as selfish and cliquey.

And you come off as someone who hasn't read my posts. This has been addressed.

[Adam Schneider]

Originally Posted by Parks

And you come off as someone who hasn't read my posts. This has been addressed.

Admittedly, I haven't read all of your posts in every thread. Where was this addressed?

[Edit: re-addressed below, I see.]

[Parks]

Originally Posted by Evil T

Like minded, huh? Well I'm glad I signed up for the SDGA now.

Your whole post indicates that you don't really get what Eric and I are saying, but I'll address this one again.

The SDGA is working to put in disc golf courses on the land that the city allows, and the SDGA will try to make the best course that they can at People's Park and Camp Sekani (the two pieces of land that we currently have to work with for new courses). I don't know the shape they will take or exactly how challenging, but they will not be pitch and putts.

If we were the ones trying to get something in at Plante's Ferry, then you would very likely see a much easier course than High Bridge being put in due to the available land to work with there.

The majority of SDGA members and people giving money to us at tournaments and weeklies want to improve their game and want to challenge themselves to get better and EARN birdies. There is no better feeling than birding a hole for the first time, and then becoming better at the game and birding it often.

I also don't understand how you want easy holes, then you say that Eagle Ridge is a "joke of a course." Especially when you say that you want hole 13 in the normal position, since it is similar to the holes at Eagle Ridge.

Your message is confusing at best.

If you do want to be a proactive member of the SDGA and bring in some easier courses, then please put in the leg work to prove that you are serious. Find communities, organizations, and schools that are willing to fund and/or provide land for easy, more family friendly courses. Like I said before, if you do that then I guarantee that the SDGA will provide the needed support to get those courses in.

We absolutely do need some beginner and family friendly courses in the area, but we currently are short on funds for even one course and have our plate full with beautiful pieces of land.

[Dixon011001]

Originally Posted by Parks

I absolutely agree.

The SDGA does not have a monopoly on disc golf in Spokane.

Why don't you find a bunch of like-minded recreational/amateur players and start a club with the goal of making easier courses on plots of land that aren't suitable for challenging courses?

I bet you could find a lot of schools and communities with local parks that would be happy to support you in such endeavors.

I like your alternate club idea. Can other clubs use your courses? If another club does start could it put in allternate tee pads?

[Evil T]

I never said i want easy holes, nor did I say to move 13 back. I commented about some of the changes, and said we need to consider the whole disc golf community. Originally my biggest complaint was the course need to be cleaned up a lot, and maybe there were other options than moving the baskets.

Actually, since I am a member of the SDGA am I right in assuming there is a voting process on course changes? And why are we changing existing courses. Why not make these new courses pro?

[Parks]

Originally Posted by Dixon011001

I like your alternate club idea. Can other clubs use your courses? If another club does start could it put in allternate tee pads?

The courses are public so anyone can use the course and play there.

As for teepads or other modifications: Only with permission of the SDGA. There needs to be direction and supervision of changes rather than rogue course "improvement." People have broken branches and cut trees in order to make holes easier without the consent of the SDGA, and it has only caused problems and jeopardized the courses.

That being said, if you could fund/find your own land for a course then it would be your direction and supervision required for course changes (in association with the land owner, of course).

[Parks]

Originally Posted by Evil T

I never said i want easy holes, nor did I say to move 13 back. I commented about some of the changes, and said we need to consider the whole disc golf community. Originally my biggest complaint was the course need to be cleaned up a lot, and maybe there were other options than moving the baskets.

This is all very viable.

Originally Posted by Evil T

Actually, since I am a member of the SDGA am I right in assuming there is a voting process on course changes?

Yes, the next meeting is 6pm Feb. 8th at Luigi's downtown. Downriver will probably be on the agenda, but High Bridge will not since the expansion (not change) has taken place. High Bridge's old pin placements will all still be used, as will the currently unused alts.

Originally Posted by Evil T

And why are we changing existing courses. Why not make these new courses pro?

We will do what suits the land given appropriate funds. I personally think that People's Park could be a great SSA (scratch scoring average) 54 course. People's Park will certainly be on the agenda Feb. 8th. Come and voice your opinion.

[ScottW]

You can please some of the people all of the time but you will never please all of the people all of the time. Think about this - Have you played Farragut? If so how was it? Did you play the 9 hole pitch and putt that is family friendly? Did you or would you play Farragut just to play the 9 hole easy course? I am guessing probably not because the other two courses are bigger and better and challenge your game in different ways and you realize that while short easy holes are necessary for the extreme beginners to get comfortable they are not what bring players back for more. I believe the SDGA is moving in the right direction and I also believe that there are suitable areas for shorter courses that would cater to the less skilled but I also think that it should be some of those players who persue these other avenues. Just my 2 cents. Keep up the good work SDGA, I already think you are doing better than last year.

[Evil T]

Maybe I do have the wrong mind set. Maybe we should concentrate on the players that need to be challenged more. Maybe new players should be segregated off to a different course. I really don't see less skilled players building a new course, but that is an option. I guess I need to look from everyone's perspective.

I do apologize for starting this thread. My original point has been muddled, and the thread has become malicious.