Appropriate Divisions -vs- Eternal Sandbaggers

[Bullseye]

Clearly... if someone is not competitive in the division they choose to play in, it is everyone else's fault.

I'll go ahead and repeat this again, as of right now, the PDGA cannot force people to play Pro. If they change their stance, then perhaps this subject can be revisited. If you think someone is sandbagging and they're playing in the highest Amateur division available to them, then perhaps it is you who needs to move down.

There appears to be two primary camps of people who complain about this issue:

Pros who want larger pro fields, thus increasing their payouts. I've seen recent posts attempting to use peer pressure to get highly rated ams to play pro, regardless of the fact that those people would have a really tough time cashing in pro.

The other loud camp are the players who aren't quite as competitive as they would like to be in some of the age-based divisions. The only person I have seen handle this perfectly is Treelove, and he does it by playing Intermediate when he feels it is appropriate. Remember, just because you can play in the masters division or even grandmasters does not necessarily mean that is the best place for you. It is your responsibility to choose the best division for you, and you should not begrudge someone for doing the same for themselves.

I'm really bummed to see that Paul felt the need to come in here and defend himself from this, when he has not done anything wrong.

Jeff H.

PS: bear in mind, this entire post would be moot if we did offer some ratings-based tourneys.

[Matt B.]

Originally Posted by Flingin fireman

How a bagger thinks….
There seems to be much concern with my entry into the amateur grandmasters division of the BSF.
I made a mistake. It does not appear that I should be in that division. There is much conjecture as to the motivation so I will attempt to share my point of view. First, I am a professional firefighter, I am an amateur disc golfer. Disc golf is a passion and a blessing to me as I have made many friends through this sport. Winning prizes is not a motivator to me as I have given away more swag, discs, bags and baskets to fundraisers, newbies, tournament directors, friends and family then most people will ever win. The idea that it is an ego issue also does not ring true as anyone that really knows me knows that I get my self worth from my faith and what I can do for others more than winning a disc golf tournament.
The truth is as I am limiting my tournament play I wanted to play with people I do not see much and have developed friendships with. I thought if I signed up for MG1 I would be playing with the likes of Brad Huggins, Tom Bontempo, Robert Brown, Jeff Elliot all of whom have beaten me when I was playing regularly. It did not turn out that way and I wish I could change things. I would be happy to move to a different division if it made the disc golf community happier. I do not want to be a taker in this sport, I want to give back.
I know to some this will just make me a justifying sandbagger (the worst kind), but I would like to go to the tournament and enjoy the Beaver State Fling experience without being “that guy”.
Paul Wright 32290

Paul - rest assured that Wes Hansen's attitude and behavior does not resemble or represent the vast majority of visitors and users of this forum. This discussion started out pretty good and had some interesting points made without getting personal or insulting. It's unfortunate that you were singled out by an angry person and you shouldn't take it personally - this thread was not started about you. Your reputation speaks for itself, and that is also the case for other people, obviously.

I hope you enjoy th BSF, and play wherever you will enjoy yourself the most.



editorial note: It would be great to have a "Thread Lock" feature in the forum.

[Wes Hansen]

Jeff-
1. Sorry for the PM. I was Hop Stoopid.
2. I wish I hadn't called anyone out by name, but listing player X's record instead of name just seemed silly. And, in the case in question, even more incendiary.
3. My opinion on the matter is formed both subjectively and objectively. I may long for glory I will probably never see, due to my poor DG skills, and that does guide my thoughts on this issue. But, like the Credible Hulk, I'm using facts to back up my feelings.
4. While I may have intimated that Pro is where some of the more prominent SBers in the age-protected divisions belong... there is a division for DGers with high skills to enter if they don't want to be a Pro. That division is MA1. You back up that view in your post- "someone is sandbagging and they're playing in the highest Amateur division available to them".... well- that would be MA1.
5. MOST of the fault with this problem lies firmly with the PDGA, which facilitates the perpetuation of the problem. How many different divisional structures have they tried in the last decade? Why do they not resolve this? As DG booms this issue will only become worse. Seems to me the competition structure for AMs isn't even on their radar.
6. I could name several players that "could have" easily SBed their way to fame in the "correct" age-protected divisions, but chose to play in divisions offering stiffer competition. I think a couple went on to become world champions. I admire those guys.
7. I am a world-class pain in the ass.
8. My apologies to all I offend. You be you and I'll be me.

[loki]

Originally Posted by Wes Hansen

Jeff-oupl
8. My apologies to all I offend. You be you and I'll be me.

And the argument comes full circle.
I think begrudging people playing in divisions that they are 100% entitled to play in is a display of bad sportsmanship equal to or greater than the perceived bad sportsmanship of that of these alleged sandbaggers. In all divisions there will always be a favorite and there will always be the eternal losers. Why do both (and everyone in between) continue to enter competitions? I refer you to the above quote....You be you and I'll be me!

Personally I enter for the fun, the camaraderie, the challenge and excitement. Others enter for the prizes but in all honesty they are probably in the minority, but again I will refer you to the above quote.

I hover around the 938 mark for adv master and relish the idea of playing a 970. A 32 point difference is not that much and I often beat my fair share of 970+ golfers. I have also OFTEN been beaten by players with ratings in the low 900's. Thus is the nature of the game and more importantly the spirit of competition. I know that I am a 'middle of the pack' competitor, but I also know that on any day I could win or come dead last and that is exactly why I enter tournaments.

I am not trying to call any single person out here (Wes, I have always enjoyed my rounds with you and look forward to many more), rather the sentiment of many. When I went to worlds as a 935 rated adv am I was really pissed off to see a 998 rated player in the field. He ended up winning and then turned pro. That is what people do. (Didn't Tiger Woods win the amateur title 3 years running?) For me it was a lesson in acceptance in how sports work. Somebody always has to be the best and NO! Not everyone has a right to hold that position, you have to earn it.

[Wes Hansen]

Right you are David.

I wish there were some way to have this discussion without talking about any particular individual, but without doing so it seemed a discussion without proof. I'd take back a post or two if I could.

This isn't really about any player, it's about the system.

[Jeff Hemmerling]

Originally Posted by Matt B.

editorial note: It would be great to have a "Thread Lock" feature in the forum.

Why??

[Matt B.]

Originally Posted by Jeff Hemmerling

Why??

So that we could stifle free speech of course!

Sometimes it seems like a thread goes so far off the rails it would be nice to lock it up to new posts. It wouldn't stop anyone from starting a new thread or continuing whatever virulent, negative assholery they have going, but it would at least keep threads from turning into negative attention spirals that serve only as breeding grounds for old grudges, name calling and conspiracy theories.

Or would it?

Probably not, and it's maybe a bad idea, and we do have rules and methods already in place to address these issues in part, so.....

[Wes Hansen]

kettle - pot. pot - kettle.

[Matt B.]

Originally Posted by Wes Hansen

kettle - pot. pot - kettle.

/Thread Lock

[Wes Hansen]

try the "ignore" feature. I find it works great having you on ignore, though I do look sometimes as you continue to follow my posts in various threads and always take the time to be any number of names you enjoy calling me. Why not talk about the subject at hand- or don't bother chiming in to harass me.

You must not be able to help yourself. You are just one of those people who hide behind their computer and acts the ass. I'll say anything in public I've said here. Come introduce yourself sometime and call me something to my face. You haven't and I'm guessing you won't ever because you're a _____________, _________.

Plenty of people here have the same general opinion on this subject, so I know you're just trying to be a cyber bully by attacking me. Kudos to you.

[emmarose]

wes.

knock it off.

it would be a good choice.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Matt B.

editorial note: It would be great to have a "Thread Lock" feature in the forum.

You are such a n00b...

[TYVEK]

Originally Posted by Wes Hansen

try the "ignore" feature. .

personaly i wish we could try the "ban wes permanently" feature. that would eliminate a ton of non disc golf drama on this site.

[Matt B.]

Originally Posted by Sam

You are such a n00b...

PERSONAL ATTACK!!! INTERNET BULLY!!!!! NAZIS IN MY UNDERWEAR!!!!

Waaaaaaaahhhhhh!!!!

[Sam]

The ten times you reported my post would have been sufficient...