Stumptown Slosh #3 - Dabney State Park - Sunday, Jan 22nd

[XandorF]

Originally Posted by PhilStomp

There was a lot of talk about one players miss play.
He was cool with however it was ruled (and that is very cool) but he wanted to understand just how the official rules would handle the miss play.

I was just sitting to the side and could not gather exactly what happen but I too am interested.

Could someone, please, detail the miss play event?
I believe I heard Jeff say that he was going to look into it.
Jeff, would you, please, pass on your findings.

I was glad to see how it was all handled.
All parties that I was listening to, seem to be most interested in getting it right. Level headed, no yelling and no blaming.

To the gentleman who miss played the hole.
Sorry about that but I felt that you handled it very well.

i appriciate that. it was me. unfortunately.

but here is how it was actually played (leaving out rules)

shot one: up to hole 12 about 25-30' long
shot two: hits front basket and drops directly below basket
--- a small argument about courtesy between myself and another player on the card---
we collect scores, i forgot at this point who was collecting the scores, i think it might have been me. i was recorded for a '3'
all tee off hole 13-
shot three: tee off hole 13, attempted roller that hits early tree.
shot four: eagle upshot that his the big fir tree 100' short of the basket up the hill
shot six: putter upshot to the basket.
then, i realized i had just thrown one of my two putters... and the other was missing. i turned back to see it lying below the basket.
i then turned back to my group, informing them of my folly, as to not aquire anymore penalty than needed. briefly discussed what i should do as to remedy the situation. we agreed that i did not play out the hole, and needed to do so. and i would be assessed a practice stroke penalty for every shot that i took before finishing out the hole previous.
then i re-teed
shot seven: roller that actually worked this time!
shot eight: putter upshot under the basket
shot nine: in the bucket.

so recap.

1,2 shots on hole 12
1,2,3 shots on hole 13 before realizing i didnt hole out, (i did not hole out hole 13 the first time through lol)
1 shot go back and finish off hole 12
then 1, 2, 3 shots to finish out hole 13.

So you tell me, whats to do with the score?

i have my honest opinion. , but id like to hear what some more qualified and seasoned players would rule this as. and any advice from anyone would be greatly appreciated as to avoid this whole situation in the future. but as brody miller pointed out to me "guess you wont do that ever again"

i want to sincerely thank Ashley Petersen and Jeff Hagerty for putting on an amazing event and for dealing with this whole situation. i know it must have caused more work but i really do appreciate your willingness to talk with me and help me better understand this crazy game we love to play.

-Xander Waibel #41673

[bryan_luoma]

Bummer, I hate to see this happen. This IS a tricky ruling.
After reading 803.01 b and 803.13 it is still unclear to me how to score this.

http://www.pdga.com/rules/80301-general
http://www.pdga.com/rules/80313-holing-out

During sanctioned play, I cannot see someone running back to hole out and replay holes (not to mention, the disc would prolly be picked up already if it was under the basket), I dunno?

My best guess is that your result should be 4p on 12 (2 throws + 2 penalty throws)? Unfortunately, this particular situation is complicated because it sounds like hole 13 was abandoned in order to go back and hole out on 12?

I'm guessing it would've been better to finish 13 cleanly, then discuss hole 12 and take the 2 throw penalty for not holing out on 12?

What if the player did not realize he/she inadvertently failed to hole out until many holes later?

numActualThrows (on said hole only) + 2, done?
999 at TDs discretion?
Other?

[XandorF]

Originally Posted by bryan_luoma

Bummer, I hate to see this happen. This IS a tricky ruling.
After reading 803.01 b and 803.13 it is still unclear to me how to score this.

http://www.pdga.com/rules/80313-holing-out

What if the player did not realize he/she inadvertently failed to hole out until many holes later?

numActualThrows (on said hole only) + 2, done?
999 at TDs discretion?
Other?

well you quoted the holing out rules. if you figured out that you didnt hole out. as long it was inadvertent, the hole is considered complete. So that being said, hole 12 was completed the second i tee'd off on hole 13. and then i played hole 13 horribly wrong. throwing 3 times, which would have counted, and yes i should have just holed out at that point... but i didnt because i feared being completely disqualified. I misplayed hole 13, and i completed the hole using 7 strokes, which were out of order which is why it was a misplayed hole. this is where im getting the 7 strokes and +2p for misplaying the hole. I completed hole 12 according to the rules under 803.13 A. (2). and despite how i misplayed the next hole (13), i still completed it in seven strokes, though they were not in order, which led to my penalty under rule 801.04 D. (closest thing i could find to what happened) which is a +2 stroke penalty for misplaying the hole... haa.
The only thing that i was concerned about at that point was completing both holes, so a 999's was avoided. i dont see, in any of these circumstances, and reason for a complete disqualification for what i did.

[runnaman]

It sounds to me like hole 12 could be scored as

Drive
missed putt
"Practice throw (hole 13) - warning"
"practice throw (hole 13) - stroke"
"practice throw (hole 13) - stroke"
Hole out - hole 12

Total - 5 strokes

Hole 13

Drive
Upshot
Putt

Total - 3 Strokes

How does that sound?

[JMan]

Wow...Let's go back to the line where there was mention of a courtesy violation discussion about throwing out of turn...was that a result of you taking your putt before another player, whose disc was out? If so, all that other politically written rule stuff could have been avoided if only you were more courteous to the members of your group. Cutting in front of another throw is as much a rhythm breaker as cutting in front of folks approaching Tee 7 at Pier.

Manners...obviously...they 'count'

[XandorF]

Originally Posted by JMan

Wow...Let's go back to the line where there was mention of a courtesy violation discussion about throwing out of turn...was that a result of you taking your putt before another player, whose disc was out? If so, all that other politically written rule stuff could have been avoided if only you were more courteous to the members of your group. Cutting in front of another throw is as much a rhythm breaker as cutting in front of folks approaching Tee 7 at Pier.

Manners...obviously...they 'count'

i was the away player. and when i set my bag down, picked out my putter and turned around to walk to my lie another player, that was clearly closer to the pin than me, was already at his lie in his putting rhythm. after he made his putt i went and attempted mine, and missed. after which i did not call him for a courtesy violation; rather, just informed the player that i was displeased with his order and manner of play. i received a "its not that big a deal," and "get over it and quit wining," type response from a couple of the other players in the group as we proceeded to play on to hole 13.
I AM NOT BLAMING ANYONE BUT MYSELF for what happened to ME. for i should know the rules for myself and not rely on others to tell me what to do. i am just giving more information as to the matter of the circumstance. Later in the round i offered my apologies to the other players in the group as my intentions were not to offend them. i have never been one to hold my tongue when i feel like i am being treated unfairly.
though, through all of this, my rhythm was severely severed and lead to me forgetting my putter below the basket. and after that two hole fiasco (not talking about pinkal's mom) i could not shake the cloud of discontent that followed me for the rest of the round.
round 1 will go down as one of the worst rated rounds i have recorded (so far and hopefully forever); however, i did manage to have a great lunch and multiple pep talks later i was able to recuperate and come back during round 2 to shoot one of my best rated rounds ever (1022). in the end, i had a great day in the rain and muck.

[Wes Hansen]

I think it's a 7 on 12 and a 7 on 13 from what I've heard.
I bet Jeff is making damn sure he does his best to reflect the rules correctly.
I'll be interested in the TDs final say on this.
And which rules (violations) were used to determine the proper score.

I thought the PDGA addressed speed of play in relation to putting and, in my limited experience, first to disc from tee very often putts before long and wrong.

.... and though putting out of order MAY be a courtesy violation, I have great difficulty believing "when" the putt is attempted (with some exceptions) has anything to do with whether the putt goes in. That's all on the puttee.

[XandorF]

Originally Posted by Wes Hansen

I think it's a 7 on 12 and a 7 on 13 from what I've heard.
I bet Jeff is making damn sure he does his best to reflect the rules correctly.
I'll be interested in the TDs final say on this.
And which rules (violations) were used to determine the proper score.

I thought the PDGA addressed speed of play in relation to putting and, in my limited experience, first to disc from tee very often putts before long and wrong.

.... and though putting out of order MAY be a courtesy violation, I have great difficulty believing "when" the putt is attempted (with some exceptions) has anything to do with whether the putt goes in. That's all on the puttee.

801.02 Order of Play
C. After all the players in the group have teed off, the player farthest from the hole (the away player) throws first. To facilitate flow of play, a player who is not farthest away may play next if the away player consents.

As the away player, i did not consent to the player that went out of turn; therefor, a courtesy violation could have been imposed.

E. Throwing out of turn shall be considered a courtesy violation. See 801.01F.
F. A player violating a courtesy rule may be warned by any affected player,...


the actions taken by "player B", regardless of how insignificant, were against the rules and AFFECTED my ability to play.

i chose to not give a courtesy violation in favor of just talking to the player. i guess i will just issue warnings over talking it out from now on.

[Wes Hansen]

You are a good player and come across as intelligent, though youthfully arrogant.

In my experience, you have no problem having your say during play. Regardless of whether you are clear on the rules or not. The response you received seems appropriate.

It seems if you were bothered at the time, it would have been appropriate to stop the player in question with a simple, "I'M OUT!" and then the whole rest of the discussion would be unnecessary.

And I don't mean for this post to seem the personal attack it has a hint of. But I've heard you refer to your version of the rules several times in an all-knowing manner (not in this thread- in person) and hope you iron that out as you rise up to and into the pro ranks.

[XandorF]

Originally Posted by Wes Hansen

You are a good player and come across as intelligent, though youthfully arrogant.

In my experience, you have no problem having your say during play. Regardless of whether you are clear on the rules or not. The response you received seems appropriate.

It seems if you were bothered at the time, it would have been appropriate to stop the player in question with a simple, "I'M OUT!" and then the whole rest of the discussion would be unnecessary.

And I don't mean for this post to seem the personal attack it has a hint of. But I've heard you refer to your version of the rules several times in an all-knowing manner and hope you iron that out as you rise up to and into the pro ranks.

Like i said before, i have never been one to hold my tongue. but i would consider myself to be someone that is very aware of my surroundings and do my best as to not disrupt other players during their game and throws. I would never disrupt a player once he has started his rhythm (on purpose), just out of courtesy to them.
i also have only been playing disc golf for 4 years now. i consider myself a relatively new player. i have read the rule book through a couple of times, but i still do not completely understand everything that i need to. Part of me being vocal and open with other players about the rulings is so that i can confirm them to be true. There have been many many many times where i believed that one rule i was playing by was true, only to be pointed out then or later that i was wrong. if i am wrong i do not argue, i accept and apologize for the fault on my part. in these situations is when i can learn the most, and do my best as to not repeat my mistakes. i always follow the rules to the best of my ability and knowledge, and will continue to encourage others to do so.

but i want to thank you for your flattery. i do not take any offense to you or your comments Wes. true, i am intelligent and arrogant. but youre wrong about me being a good player. im a great player, and im not going anywhere.

[snap7times]

Sorry to see this happen, impt learn and grow from it. I have seen this happen often during competition and usually we just putt when we putt, communicate who's turn it is etc. When someone goes before the right person, hopefully the players are good enough to focus only on themselves and not let it get to their head. Sean Philips actually threw his 125 foot upshot on hole 13 right before I threw my 175 foot upshot and it did affect me as his disc was half way to the basket when I was going through my motion and I shorted the basket big time. He came up and said sorry and I said no biggie, it happens, I should have stopped my motion or stayed confident, so I went up for the 50+ foot putt over the huge log and nailed it; only yourself control your game.
So, the player who was obviously closer, was already in his motion, he was just going for the speed of play; let him putt, give yourself more time to focus and motivation to nail the putt.
Great 1022 round

[Sean Phillips]

So just to out myself so there isn't secrecy, I was the person that putted before Xander. I felt that the two discs were close in distance and my lie was quicker to address. Mine was short of the basket, Xander's was long. So without consulting the group, I addressed my lie and putted. Xander was nice enough to let me putt without disruption.

As stated before, Xander approached me with his complaint. My response was pretty much what Xander described. The point I was trying to get across was that a golfer shouldn't let relatively small things like this get to him/her. We continued our round, shook hands, and I feel all is well. No hurt feelings.

Now the evidence of my speed of play habits showed it's ugly head during the second round with Snap. I identified that situation as a definite foul on my part and immediately apologized.

[Bullseye]

I think I have this mess figured out, and I am sending in my final TD report. At the tourney I had initially scored these two holes as (12) 3+2=5 and (13) 3+3=6, however, after hearing the whole story in greater detail AND consulting some rules gurus I am going submit this scored as follows:

AT: Actual throws that counted
P: Penalty for misplaying hole
PT: Practice Throw

Hole #12: 2AT + 2P + 1PT = 5
Hole #13: 3AT + 2P + 3 PT = 8

The key lesson here is this: if you EVER have a rules question during a sanctioned round, regardless of what your group says, always declare your provisional throws. This is how this SHOULD have worked out for Xander. He should have simply finished out Hole 13 for his 4, then taken his 2 stroke penalty for unintentionally not finishing Hole 12.

Hole #12: 2AT + 2P = 4
Hole #13: 4AT = 4

That would have been a much better result than the 14 he took due to the confusion.

Thanks,

Jeff

[emmarose]

enough about xander already (kidding 'cause this was actually interesting to hear about)...

i would like to congratulate:

pinkal and his mom for some great shooting and a nice win in open...

andrea keller for killing it in advanced and shooting well above her rating... if that girl gave up everything else she does that is super cool and just played golf... what a force to be reckoned with she would be...

ned blaisdell... not just a nice guy, but a great player... congrats on 1st in advanced...

and jeff hagerty and his one footed putting to take the win in masters...

and phillip kurtz (advanced grandmasters)... you're lucky you said all those nice things about him or else i'd be pissed that you beat my dad...

dan brown, jr destroys the intermediate division ... it's been a pleasure to watch you grow (and i don't just mean passing the 6 foot mark)... my favorite thing about you besides your skill has always been your demeanor and sportsmanship... impressive for such a young man.

lynn (not theodora!!!) for another win in intermediate women and for on her own deciding it was time to move up ( i actually still think she should finish out the series in intermediate... winning is just so much fun)

and crist garcia (i finally remembered... hey, did anyone ever check that dude's id?) for the win in advanced masters...

... and me? i wore my trophy hat to work all day yesterday and the blazer game last night... with the tag still on... damn right, i did.




... oh, and props to sean phillips for being a good sport, consummate professional and all around stand up guy... and it sounds like you, as well, xander... rules are important and so is knowing them (i hope that you are reading your rulebook right now! and this is a good lesson in that speed of play is important indeed but so is taking the proper amount of time... i find that nothing good ever comes from rushing rushing rushing...)


yeah, slosh!!!

p.s. super good idea on the hats, miss ashley peterson!!! and thank you to everyone who always makes these things happen...

[ned.blaze]

Thank you Emma for your kind words and beautiful spirit, always a pleaaure seeing you out there.

[Jason Philips]

dan brown, jr... it's been a pleasure to watch you grow (and i don't just mean passing the 6 foot mark)... my favorite thing about you besides your skill has always been your demeanor and sportsmanship... impressive for such a young man.

Very true. He is going to make one hell of a pro and a great ambassador for the sport.

[blu666z]

http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ycn-10872201

[Flatroc]

Originally Posted by GrummyBear

So.. Now a lot.. MORE.. People know.. Maybe that will encourage MORE people to come along to witness such great golfers getting their slosh on.

As a Stumptown DGC member and someone who could care less about secrets, I think this is a gudt point.
Moot yep, but I did get excited for all of you folks up there for a bit.