Foot Faults and staddle putts oh my

[XandorF]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itUZv0rGL6E

ive been practicing my 35+ft straddle putt. working out if i want to jump, step, or stand still. i was watching some video of some pro's and was looking at this one. Nikko's putt at ~ 1:30 is the kind of putt im talking about when i mean a jump straddle. but i looked at this a couple times and it looks like to me that Nikko is leaving the ground with his left foot before he lets go of the disc... what do you think?

also at 7:28 Dave is demonstrating his step through putt; although its not a straddle putt, i just like to show people that its not a foot fault.

anyways. any help that anyone has towards what i should be doing off the straddle, as to avoid trees would be greatly appriciated

[Flash]

Originally Posted by XandorF

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itUZv0rGL6E
Nikko's putt at ~ 1:30 is the kind of putt im talking about when i mean a jump straddle. but i looked at this a couple times and it looks like to me that Nikko is leaving the ground with his left foot before he lets go of the disc... what do you think?

Xander, it looks to me like you may be correct. It looks like Nikko leverages his right foot for the jump. He shifts his weight to his right foot and then lifts his left foot and jumps from the right. Having the advantage of video makes it easier to analyze this but if you watch it for the first time it may be hard to make the call in real time and get a second. I would say that it would be better to not practice these types of putts as the more it gets analyzed the more likely people will question the putt.

[XandorF]

Originally Posted by Flash

Xander, it looks to me like you may be correct. It looks like Nikko leverages his right foot for the jump. He shifts his weight to his right foot and then lifts his left foot and jumps from the right. Having the advantage of video makes it easier to analyze this but if you watch it for the first time it may be hard to make the call in real time and get a second. I would say that it would be better to not practice these types of putts as the more it gets analyzed the more likely people will question the putt.

i wont be using that jump from the straddle, i just think more people should be aware that they fault when doing so.

message to me:
"I've wanted to video you and see if your step putt was legal. I've thought not."
coming soon...

soup for you.

[Flash]

I notice that when a player is taking their stance behind their lie in a straddle with their non dominate foot behind their marker at a distance greater than 10 meters that a stance violation is imminent. I usually am more attentive in these situations. Like Nikko demonstrated in his putt he jumped from his right foot which is not behind his lie but out to the side of the line of play. Like most of these situations its hard to make a call because most people are not trying to take unfair advantage, they are just making a mistake. That's why I feel people are more willing to let people know they are making this mistake without the official warning. However in my experience of watching situations like that unfold people often take offense regardless of the call being an official warning or a friendly reminder which is a shame. I think these situations are more seriously contested in cases where someone perceives unfair advantage and money is on the line. AKA BSF 2010, Hole 17 Eastside final round!

On your other topic of interest.
I was discussing with Pinkal walk through putts during a recent round together and had a question that we did not resolve and I have yet to ask the rules committee thinking I already have a pretty good idea of the ruling.

So the question is: if a person performs a walk through putt and makes contact with a branch or tall grass in front of their lie prior to releasing the disc but not the solid ground, is the putt legal or illegal?

803.04 Stance, Subsequent to Teeing Off:
A. When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that is
in contact with the playing surface on the line of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc (except as specified in 803.04 E)
(2) have no supporting point contact with the marker disc or any object closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc.

Supporting Point: Any part of a player’s body that is in contact with the playing surface or some other object capable of providing support, at the time of release.

Playing Surface: A surface, generally the ground, which is capable of supporting the player and from which a stance may reasonably be taken. In cases where it is unclear whether a surface is the playing surface, the decision shall be made by the tournament director or a course official.

Due to the wording of the above rule and definitions it would be difficult to call someone on a walking putt unless it was blatantly obvious that they made contact with the playing surface with a supporting point. Grass, twigs, piles of leaves or broken branches would fall outside the category of playing surface unless the TD specifically said they were.

[General Scales]

It's very very close but I believe that the foot fault is more along the lines of moving his right foot forward right before he actually jumps. I framed by framed it and the disc is out of his hand before he leaves his feet. From the angle you cannot tell if his supporting foot actually is even with his lie or ahead of it. Guess that's why it's a judgment call from the group on situations like that. I can tell you that when I straddle/jump, I do the Feldberg walk through. Just from a straddle situation.

[Bluedisc]

Originally Posted by Flash

So the question is: if a person performs a walk through putt and makes contact with a branch or tall grass in front of their lie prior to releasing the disc but not the solid ground, is the putt legal or illegal?

803.04 Stance, Subsequent to Teeing Off:
A. When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that is
in contact with the playing surface on the line of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc (except as specified in 803.04 E)
(2) have no supporting point contact with the marker disc or any object closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc.

Supporting Point: Any part of a player’s body that is in contact with the playing surface or some other object capable of providing support, at the time of release.

Playing Surface: A surface, generally the ground, which is capable of supporting the player and from which a stance may reasonably be taken. In cases where it is unclear whether a surface is the playing surface, the decision shall be made by the tournament director or a course official.

Due to the wording of the above rule and definitions it would be difficult to call someone on a walking putt unless it was blatantly obvious that they made contact with the playing surface with a supporting point. Grass, twigs, piles of leaves or broken branches would fall outside the category of playing surface unless the TD specifically said they were.

Hey Flash--this sparked a question or two that I thought I had answers for, but now I'm not so sure.

1. When someone is throwing out of a rough area, perhaps from within a bush or densely limbed tree, can the player "follow through" with the disc in hand (before release) if the disc pushes a leaf or limb out of the way during the throwing motion? I've seen people push weeds, berry vines or even branches that are in front of their marker out of the way as they throw and release--is that illegal?

2. Would the above act be more or less legal if it was the players arm, hand or head (!) that makings contact with the attached greenary? Again, assume the tree limb (or whatever) is connected to the ground and or in front of the marker....

Thanks!
J

[Flash]

Originally Posted by General Scales

It's very very close but I believe that the foot fault is more along the lines of moving his right foot forward right before he actually jumps. I framed by framed it and the disc is out of his hand before he leaves his feet. From the angle you cannot tell if his supporting foot actually is even with his lie or ahead of it. Guess that's why it's a judgment call from the group on situations like that. I can tell you that when I straddle/jump, I do the Feldberg walk through. Just from a straddle situation.

You might be complete correct on the call and yes either way it would be tough to call. However the only foot that matters is his left foot as this is his stance position inline with his mark on the line of play, does the disc come out before the left foot lifts off the ground?

[Kenny B]

Originally Posted by XandorF

i wont be using that jump from the straddle, i just think more people should be aware that they fault when doing so.

I don't think you can say this. Just because a person may fault on a jump putt does not mean that everyone does.

I will not call a foot fault on a jump putt unless it is obviously clear (with the naked eye instead of a frame by frame camera analysis) that the player jumped and then threw.

I'm not interested in whether or not a player jumped off the ground 0.1 seconds before letting go.

[Rolly]

It is difficult to jump and then putt while airborne. Try it. Seriously, go and try releasing after all feet have left the ground. It is inaccurate and not very fluid.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Rolly

It is difficult to jump and then putt while airborne. Try it. Seriously, go and try releasing after all feet have left the ground. It is inaccurate and not very fluid.

Initially, yes; but I can see how someone could become proficient with practice.

[XandorF]

Originally Posted by Kenny B

I don't think you can say this. Just because a person may fault on a jump putt does not mean that everyone does.

I will not call a foot fault on a jump putt unless it is obviously clear (with the naked eye instead of a frame by frame camera analysis) that the player jumped and then threw.

I'm not interested in whether or not a player jumped off the ground 0.1 seconds before letting go.

i agree. i would not have called him for a fault in any tournament round situation. i am going to play my game while he, or whomever else, plays theirs.

however, scott was saying about practice, if someone was to practice a faulty putt, and perfect it to the point where it was so close that people just brushed it off and said, "I'm not interested in whether or not a player jumped off the ground 0.1 seconds before letting go.", that player would then be getting an unfair advantage over the rest of the field. Micheal Jordan, one of the greatest basketball players of all time, was one of the dirtiest. dont be afraid to call people out on the rules, they are their for a reason. not even just talking about PDGA rounds either, casual rounds too. what friend is going to let another friend practice a faulty putt over and over in front of them without at least making fun of them or trying to insight a change. friends dont let friends foot fault.

[Sean Phillips]

I asked somebody this question (Dion or Dave) and they said that contact is OK as long as it is unintentional.

Originally Posted by Bluedisc

Hey Flash--this sparked a question or two that I thought I had answers for, but now I'm not so sure.

1. When someone is throwing out of a rough area, perhaps from within a bush or densely limbed tree, can the player "follow through" with the disc in hand (before release) if the disc pushes a leaf or limb out of the way during the throwing motion? I've seen people push weeds, berry vines or even branches that are in front of their marker out of the way as they throw and release--is that illegal?

2. Would the above act be more or less legal if it was the players arm, hand or head (!) that makings contact with the attached greenary? Again, assume the tree limb (or whatever) is connected to the ground and or in front of the marker....

Thanks!
J

[emmarose]

Originally Posted by Sean Phillips

I asked somebody this question (Dion or Dave) and they said that contact is OK as long as it is unintentional.

i've spent a lot of time myself reading up on this rule as i feel strongly that a misunderstanding and unintentional misguidance from another player screwed my score at a tournament a couple years ago (which ultimately i can take responsibility for 'cause i should know the rules and if i have to ask i risk getting a wrong answer)... i can't remember exactly what the rule is but it says something along the lines of incidental movement of foliage due to a player's throwing motion is not a violation...

[mine all mine]

After watching the video, it is clear Nikko did not foot fault on that putt. I will say that that is the putt I see the most foot faults on. Not usually in the open, but when the supporting point is in a bush or awkwardly behind something. That foot gets pulled away before releasing the disc while attempting to gain enough forward momentum for the jump put to actually help with distance, resulting in a foot fault. I try not to worry if the disc is out of their hand as much as I watch the foot that is behind their mark. I believe that is where the majority of foot faults occur.

[Simmeltron]

The way I understand it, Dave faulted on his putt at 7:20

[DMajor]

Originally Posted by Rolly

It is difficult to jump and then putt while airborne. Try it. Seriously, go and try releasing after all feet have left the ground. It is inaccurate and not very fluid.

If you have spent a lot of time practicing basketball jump shots then it can be hard to not jump when first learning the straddle putt. Pretty sure I don't lose any accuracy while airborne especially when my release point is a foot or two closer to the basket, but luckily that is a terribly obvious violation so I don't have to worry about the grey.

I straddle everything outside of the circle up to about 50-60 feet and I always line both feet up along the perpendicular line facing the basket. Make a + in the dirt from your mark on the ground and don't move your non disc any closer to the basket. Just make sure your disc foot is on the ground when you release.

Many people mistakenly believe your non disc foot needs to be farther away from the basket than your disc foot, but the rule is that it can not be any closer than your disc foot. If your feet are square along that perpendicular line than you are legal, just don't inch it closer. If anyone questions your legallity show them the perpendicular line and ask if they have a protractor or Tsquare in the bag.

[Flash]

Originally Posted by Bluedisc

Hey Flash--this sparked a question or two that I thought I had answers for, but now I'm not so sure.

1. When someone is throwing out of a rough area, perhaps from within a bush or densely limbed tree, can the player "follow through" with the disc in hand (before release) if the disc pushes a leaf or limb out of the way during the throwing motion? I've seen people push weeds, berry vines or even branches that are in front of their marker out of the way as they throw and release--is that illegal?

2. Would the above act be more or less legal if it was the players arm, hand or head (!) that makings contact with the attached greenary? Again, assume the tree limb (or whatever) is connected to the ground and or in front of the marker....

Thanks!
J

Jason,

Here is how I see that situation,

803.04 Stance, Subsequent to Teeing Off:

D. A player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course.

803.05 Obstacles and Relief:A. Obstacles to a Stance or Throwing Motion: With the exception of casual obstacles to a stance as described in 803.05 B, a player is not allowed to move any obstacle on the course. No relief is granted from park equipment (such as signs, trash cans, picnic tables, etc), which is considered part of the course. A player is allowed to request that other people remove themselves and/or their belongings from the player's stance or line of play. A player must choose the stance which results in the least movement of any obstacle. Once a legal stance is taken, the player may not move an obstacle in any way in order to make room for a throwing motion. It is legal for a player's throwing motion to cause incidental movement of an obstacle.


If someone is moving an object purposely during their throwing motion AKA practice motions before they throw I would say its an illegal throw, if contact is incidental when they actually throw the disc then its a legal throw.

[XandorF]

Originally Posted by Simmeltron

The way I understand it, Dave faulted on his putt at 7:20

nikko's putt was the one that i had questions on. dave DID NOT fault on that putt. that i have no question about.
what is it exactly that you understand? why do you think he faulted? please elaborate.
He has putts like this multiple times every round... you think if he was faulting that people would call him out on it? right? so either all the other pros believe that hes doing it right (not faulting), they dont care, or theyre too afraid to say anything and call him out. only one of those 3 options seems to make sense to me.
if you slow the video down it is clear to me that the disc leaves his hand well before his foot meets the ground.

[Rolly]

Looking again at the video, watch Cale @ 7:12, could be the angle but the knee looks forward too..

[Simmeltron]

Originally Posted by XandorF

nikko's putt was the one that i had questions on. dave DID NOT fault on that putt. that i have no question about.
what is it exactly that you understand? why do you think he faulted? please elaborate.
He has putts like this multiple times every round... you think if he was faulting that people would call him out on it? right? so either all the other pros believe that hes doing it right (not faulting), they dont care, or theyre too afraid to say anything and call him out. only one of those 3 options seems to make sense to me.
if you slow the video down it is clear to me that the disc leaves his hand well before his foot meets the ground.

My bad, I don't claim to know all the rules. Have only been explained them by people who claim to be qualified officials. I was told that the disc must leave his hand before he left the ground, not before he touched back down.