2011 Farragut Open - Oct. 8th - 9th

[mine all mine]

Originally Posted by ScottW

My thoughts are if NS is best played with thumbers instead of controlled backhand or forehand shots then get better at throwing a thumber then everyone else and if you won't do it then I hope you're real good at locating your other shots. I won't do the thumber trick not because I think it is a weak cheater shot but because I hate throwing them and think I become a better player by throwing other shots. That said, I know sometimes thumbers are just necessary so I use them on occasion. I don't have a problem if the tournament overall forces players to use a wide range of shot selections (even the dreaded overhand) because players should have them all incorporated into their game.

I don't throw thumbers because they HURT! All overhand shots hurt to throw, so why should a secondary shot be forced to be made off the tee? A hole should not be designed so the best shot is one that doesn't require a ton of skill, but merely rotator cuff strength. That is not a well designed hole. I have run tournaments in the past where I used height mandos to restrict the overhand shots off the tee because the more skilled shot is the one necessary to navigate the middle of the fairway.

Just sayin

[General Scales]

Now there is a certain amount of risk reward to the thumber/tomahawk. If you use the two meter rule, the chance of taking a stroke by trying to throw a thumber into or over the tree line goes up exponentially. I've lost more discs in those evilly thick tree's at Farragut from overhands than I have from any other shot selection. One more thing, I doubt anybody would tell Brian Schweberger that his thumber doesn't take skill. He can throw every kind of shot with a thumber. That is skill.

Now that I have gone that route, I don't throw but a few overhands a round. Not that I can't and not that I don't have a killer thumber. It's more along the lines of I'd like to continue playing this game as I get older instead of remembering the times I played till I tore my shoulder apart from throwing overhands.

I still think the best way to go about this whole situation is to sit down with Jack and the players and decide what would be the best and most challenging situation. I know that if you had some ob rope and some mando's in certain area's, you'd definitely see some score variation. Something to think about.

[Yoduh]

I have heard him say that it takes no skill at worlds in a practice round in KC.
There is one mando that we added to hole 7 to drop thumbers but that is the only hole possible. I don't see ob rope making thumbers less likely. They are MORE precise so it wouldn't hurt a thumber.

[Yoduh]

The only somewhat tough thumber throw is a thumber roller which I ca do with pretty good accuracy

[ScottW]

Originally Posted by Yoduh

It does make a lot of sense that tournament hardened and TD extrordanaire Jack makes the decisions about we the unknowing players play..

Ahhh yes, a snide remark will surely help you win your case Another touch of class from Jeremy Thornton! Obviously the best decision for any TD would be to step aside and just ask the Open players what they want to do, then do that while still having to take the brunt of the players gripes about other tourney complications. Perhaps the only way Jeremy will be happy is if TD extraordinaire Jeremy runs an event, then you can make all of your decisions based on what you think the Open players will like most. That will surely work well. It's just like with anything else, we're just trying to run a fun event that makes the most happy and makes the most players want to return.

Anyway, digressing, I do think that some added difficulty with mandos and/or OB could help alleviate some of the overhand issues, especially on NorthStar. It's too bad not everyone can just be happy to be playing in a tournament and not have to worry about ALL the hassles of running it.

[LJ Jubner]

Originally Posted by ScottW

Ahhh yes, a snide remark will surely help you win your case Another touch of class from Jeremy Thornton! Obviously the best decision for any TD would be to step aside and just ask the Open players what they want to do, then do that while still having to take the brunt of the players gripes about other tourney complications. Perhaps the only way Jeremy will be happy is if TD extraordinaire Jeremy runs an event, then you can make all of your decisions based on what you think the Open players will like most. That will surely work well. It's just like with anything else, we're just trying to run a fun event that makes the most happy and makes the most players want to return.

Anyway, digressing, I do think that some added difficulty with mandos and/or OB could help alleviate some of the overhand issues, especially on NorthStar. It's too bad not everyone can just be happy to be playing in a tournament and not have to worry about ALL the hassles of running it.

Yoduh snide comments are what keeps you from being welcome.

You have been weighed, measured and found wanting, AGAIN!

[Yoduh]

You really think that there would be a brunt of gripes over playing DBD twice? How is asking the Open players what they want steping aside? Don't most of the advanced players want to be an open player sooner or later? Don't most golfers want to get better. A harder course does make you better, and it's the very end of the season so most players should be at the top of their game. This tournament will decide the best players in our series so why not have them play a course that is A) a fair test of golf with tons of challenge or B) a somewhat lucky and overhand dominated course, but might be more fun, if you consider fun, to be whatever's easier.
I think that it doesn't make sense to have the person with the least experience make the decision's so shoot me. I should not have used sarcasm to deliver my point. Lots of people are thinking it, and only one person says it. Happens all the time.
Ams should design courses and pro's should just be happy cause we all are so spoiled.. I know, snide again
Jub is awesome! I love you man
On a more serious note. Jack does an excellent job of running tournaments. His events have continually started and ran seemlesly. I know that when I come to your guys events that I will have fun! Your whole family does a lot of organizing for this big event and for the NIDGA and I am always thankful for your efforts! I do apologize for bringing some negativity with me.
I am volunteering efforts, and trying to bring a ton of energy to help grow a course and a legend that is Farragut disc golf. Events like this can really motivate the troops to jump in and do some quality long lasting work that will really benefit our whole community. It is going to turn into a place that people know about, and want to go, into a place that people will have to go.
You guys make the decision and I will do what I can to help. I will be making tweeks on a few holes throughout the complex to help the golfability of the holes that are a little over grown.

[Yoduh]

Hole 12 on the Northstar needs a mando on the tree's right off the teepad to the left. That would stop the easy over the top thumber. 17 could use a mando to the right on the first left tree 70 feet down. Don't know if you could put one on 3.. you could but then I really feel bad for lefty's but what an easy overhand.. Hole 5 and 10 need one but there is no where to put it. My discs almost never get caught in trees when throwing an over hand because I throw them hard but back hands and sidearms get caught much more frequently. I don't really like the 2 meter rule except on desert courses where there is a shortage of trees..

[MTChristian]

DBD does not favor any one type of shot. It rewards good shots and punishes bad shots, and success can be had with a huge number of different shots, as long as they are well-executed. It has multiple two-or-three-shot, links-style holes. Even Blue Mtn. is pretty much a par 3 course and can't compete.

The Wreckreator is a good course for a par-3 course, somewhere in between a tournament course and a recreational course, and suitable for use in a tournament to provide some variety. I can understand wanting to include this course in a two-day tournament, where twice-through the "big" course in one day is less preferable for other reasons besides variety as well...time constraints, overkill effort-wise to force people to go twice through DBD, etc. If the Farragut Open was one notch bigger--say, an A-Tier--there'd be a good argument to scrap the Wreckreator AND the North Star, and to go with some configuration of SBD and DBD for all rounds. It's not like the DBD is all that strenuous; it's flat and is not a par 68 or anything.

The Northstar, on the other hand, is a recreational course, not a tournament course, for open players. Plain and simple. The length and high-percentage shot selections are not appropriate for serious tournament play, besides casual, local-fundraiser type tournaments. It hugely favors certain types of shots (overhands) and is thus poorly designed, IMO, from a competitive standpoint. And I frankly agree that ability to throw good, 300' overhands is 5% skill and 95% rotator cuff strength. Lest you think I have sour grapes because the DBD gives me some advantage while the NS evens things out, the Northstar has always only HELPED me out, score-wise--but any course you can shoot a 42 on, throwing 14 thumbers off the tee, is a recreational course. http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/13490/Open
I sure would like to play a Superclass event on the North Star, though!

So, in sum, my opinion is that for open players, at least, it would be a really questionable decision to use the north star course in Farragut's big annual tournament. There is no way that any added OB or anything like that would change the overall character of the course. Kind of like how with Zoo Town, we don't use the white tees anymore because if people are coming to play the course once a year, they deserve to play the best the area has to offer, and it is cutting that in HALF to add the white tees in a subtract a blue tees round. Plus, there's no concern over forcing am or age-protected divisions to play a bunch of DBD, if they don't want to--NS is still available and could be used for lower-rated divisions, as the PDGA suggests (match course SSA to avg ratings of div. playing it, as a general rule...thus "blue level courses," "gold level courses," etc...http://www.pdga.com/course-design-validation) So, easy to avoid concerns over players unhappy about being forced through the tough course twice...they won't be. I would seriously doubt that any open players would be unhappy about playing DBD twice...it's the main attraction!

That said, I will be happy to make the trek over to play the DBD even if it is only once, and if it is just impossible logistically, then I do support favoring the needs of ams over pros in order to grow the sport. Obviously Farragut is a glorious location and that is a huge draw as well. But I certainly wouldn't be driving 6 hours to play the Wreckreator and the North Star, even with the lakeside view. I personally don't think there's a better permanent course for tournament golf in WA, ID, or MT than the DBD. Here's hoping.

[General Scales]

Originally Posted by MTChristian

DBD does not favor any one type of shot. It rewards good shots and punishes bad shots, and success can be had with a huge number of different shots, as long as they are well-executed. It has multiple two-or-three-shot, links-style holes. Even Blue Mtn. is pretty much a par 3 course and can't compete.

The Wreckreator is a good course for a par-3 course, somewhere in between a tournament course and a recreational course, and suitable for use in a tournament to provide some variety. I can understand wanting to include this course in a two-day tournament, where twice-through the "big" course in one day is less preferable for other reasons besides variety as well...time constraints, overkill effort-wise to force people to go twice through DBD, etc. If the Farragut Open was one notch bigger--say, an A-Tier--there'd be a good argument to scrap the Wreckreator AND the North Star, and to go with some configuration of SBD and DBD for all rounds. It's not like the DBD is all that strenuous; it's flat and is not a par 68 or anything.

The Northstar, on the other hand, is a recreational course, not a tournament course, for open players. Plain and simple. The length and high-percentage shot selections are not appropriate for serious tournament play, besides casual, local-fundraiser type tournaments. It hugely favors certain types of shots (overhands) and is thus poorly designed, IMO, from a competitive standpoint. And I frankly agree that ability to throw good, 300' overhands is 5% skill and 95% rotator cuff strength. Lest you think I have sour grapes because the DBD gives me some advantage while the NS evens things out, the Northstar has always only HELPED me out, score-wise--but any course you can shoot a 42 on, throwing 14 thumbers off the tee, is a recreational course. http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/13490/Open
I sure would like to play a Superclass event on the North Star, though!

So, in sum, my opinion is that for open players, at least, it would be a really questionable decision to use the north star course in Farragut's big annual tournament. There is no way that any added OB or anything like that would change the overall character of the course. Kind of like how with Zoo Town, we don't use the white tees anymore because if people are coming to play the course once a year, they deserve to play the best the area has to offer, and it is cutting that in HALF to add the white tees in a subtract a blue tees round. Plus, there's no concern over forcing am or age-protected divisions to play a bunch of DBD, if they don't want to--NS is still available and could be used for lower-rated divisions, as the PDGA suggests (match course SSA to avg ratings of div. playing it, as a general rule...thus "blue level courses," "gold level courses," etc...http://www.pdga.com/course-design-validation) So, easy to avoid concerns over players unhappy about being forced through the tough course twice...they won't be. I would seriously doubt that any open players would be unhappy about playing DBD twice...it's the main attraction!

That said, I will be happy to make the trek over to play the DBD even if it is only once, and if it is just impossible logistically, then I do support favoring the needs of ams over pros in order to grow the sport. Obviously Farragut is a glorious location and that is a huge draw as well. But I certainly wouldn't be driving 6 hours to play the Wreckreator and the North Star, even with the lakeside view. I personally don't think there's a better permanent course for tournament golf in WA, ID, or MT than the DBD. Here's hoping.

I can't argue with this. I personally would love to play DBD all weekend long and leave the other courses out of the mix. I also don't mind playing any of the courses either as anytime at Farragut is a good time. I just want to play damn it! Perhaps we could institute a no overhand rule on Northstar!



That would cause some of this type of face from player's I'd think.

[Kris C]

I throw quite a few tommy's and thumbers on NS, and my scores are in the high 50's. My bro-in-law throws absolutely NO overhands at all, and he always scores in the high 50's. He also is a RHFH. It's all about disc selection and how to throw.

[ScottW]

Jeremy, your last two posts were so much more well stated and well worded, you plead your case much better - without being snide. Christian, well stated! Good comparison to Blue Mountain white vs. blue tees. I do know of at least one Open player Ben Squires (as he stated in an earlier post) who would like to play all 3 - I don't think you can write him off either as he will probably be very competitive during the tourney, he's a solid player. I think everyone has valid points and even though Jack probably will have the final say since he is TD (extraordinaire) it is also being sponsored in LARGE part by the NIDGC, so we will continue to gather local sentiment and otherwise and take all comments and ideas into consideration. Jeremy, keep us informed on the additions to SBD as it transforms into the DBD to which you speak of.

[Yoduh]

What disc do you throw for thumbers? How good are you at putting? Christian and I have been playing a combined 20 plus years here. I've played 275 courses in 26 states so its not like we are trying to make this up. Been to the World championships 5 times and played 15 plus tournaments for the last 10 years. The facts that we are stating are just that. I wish the NorthStar was tournament worthy. I want 3or 4, even 5 tournament worthy courses up there!!

[General Scales]

Originally Posted by Kris C

I throw quite a few tommy's and thumbers on NS, and my scores are in the high 50's. My bro-in-law throws absolutely NO overhands at all, and he always scores in the high 50's. He also is a RHFH. It's all about disc selection and how to throw.

Depending on how many beers I've had depends on my score. 0-2 beers, 49-54 with no overhands. 3-6 beers, 54-59 without overhands. 7 + beers and I forget the score.

I've never actually played Northstar using overhands primarily. Maybe I should...

[Yoduh]

Originally Posted by ScottW

Jeremy, your last two posts were so much more well stated and well worded, you plead your case much better - without being snide. Christian, well stated! Good comparison to Blue Mountain white vs. blue tees. I do know of at least one Open player Ben Squires (as he stated in an earlier post) who would like to play all 3 - I don't think you can write him off either as he will probably be very competitive during the tourney, he's a solid player. I think everyone has valid points and even though Jack probably will have the final say since he is TD (extraordinaire) it is also being sponsored in LARGE part by the NIDGC, so we will continue to gather local sentiment and otherwise and take all comments and ideas into consideration. Jeremy, keep us informed on the additions to SBD as it transforms into the DBD to which you speak of.

I know Tom Stephens said he wants to play all three but he throws 400' thumbers. He said he throws thumbers on 7-9 of the holes depending on the wind. Wayne and Big Mike and Tim V. said they'd rather play two on the DBD. It would suck to shoot 54 on DBD and 50 on Wreckreator and 50 on North Star and lose to somebody who shot 42 on North Star and shot 58 on DBD and 53 on Wreck. North Star allows for less skilled golfers to shoot well.

[mine all mine]

Tom's thumbers are huge! that being said, I just want to play the best possible layout that will crown a worthy winner. It is sounding like North Star may not be the best course for the open division to play. If we do play it I will be sure to score around 45 so I don't get left behind...not saying I will, but I will give her hell!

[General Scales]

Every time I see Tom throw a thumber, the 6 million dollar man noise goes through my head.

I'm going to Farragut Saturday to try out this overhand theory on Northstar. I have a sneaking suspicion that I will shoot my best round...then promptly ice my shoulder and eat a handful of Excedrin back and body.

[Yoduh]

Stretch before.. Think of a baseball player that throws for 15 minutes before they throw hard once. I usually hold a disc with the hammer grip and pretend to throw 20 plus times before I throw a thumber. Think 10% 15% 20% on each practice non throw. Stretch good right after you hit 70-80%, I usually stay in that range for 5-10 throws. Hurt your roatator cuff and your out a month minimum, last time I did mine it was 7 weeks of lefty golf.

[General Scales]

It's not that I don't properly stretch before hand or go and throw giant bombing thumbers immediately when getting to the course. It's an old mountain bike injury that causes my shoulder to laterally separate when making that motion. If I slow motioned a video focused directly on my shoulder when throwing any overhand, you can actually see my shoulder separate and go back to normal. Backhand and forehand don't cause as much stress simply because there is much more follow through with the body, effectively absorbing more of the stress.

Still going to try it out. Perhaps that will be what I need to drop my scores in the mid to high 40's.

[Yoduh]

Oh I C. I wouldn't practice.. It's not like you have to practice thumbers.. I don't, I just know how to cause I can throwem. They are unbulleivably simple