Jeremy, I agree with you for the most part on hole design/theory, but I think you're wrong on 7/8 and 11.
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Originally Posted by Yoduh
Putting the tee of 7 where 8's basket is makes the hole a routeless non risk reward par 3.5. A hole that would work but would not separate skill level in an appropriate, measureable, consistent design. There would be no preferred shot other than to lay up. make an upshot and take a 3.
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First, the current hole is routeless. 15 foot gaps at over 200 feet, where being off your line by 2 feet could send you off a tree into the river. If you look from behind 8's where the teepad would be, you can see a very clearly defined 30 footish gap to aim a righty hyzer safe shot for those with less than 450' of power (99.9% of us) or a lefty/sidearm distance route which can result in birdy for those with 400+ feet of power (1% of us, or more for tourney players). A righty with enough power to throw the hyzer to the log can grab more consistent deuces on this hole than the current hole because the route is a LOT less random.
There would also be a very risky RHBH turnover route that could produce 2's, but its tight and random. But those wanting to take the risk could reap the reward.
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Originally Posted by Yoduh
It would also still be in danger of people throwing off of 8.
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Nope. Look at the area like 30 feet behind 8's pin. If 8's pin is moved, this is a very safe place to be, in addition to having vision.
[quote=Yoduh;96756]The hole as it stands has quite a bit of luck. involved to get a 2 but it is gettable.[/quote
Agreed 100%.
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Originally Posted by Yoduh
During the DRO I took a flippy wraith RBH and threw it 2/3 of the way down the fairway and made my up and got 3 3's. It was birdied a couple times and there were many 4's and a few 5's.
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This also sounds really boring, with a silly safe shot and random kicks off trees that will kick and create 4s/5s. Having a high score differentiation based mostly on luck is not desirable at all.
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Originally Posted by Yoduh
The proposed change would eliminate the 2 and cause players to throw safe drives which would increase the number of 3's and decrease the number of 4's and eliminate most 5's. These changes will create a smaller scoring swing and less separation of scores. Making a boring hole basically. Similar to hole 2 at the DRO except without any birdies at all.
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2's would not be eliminated for top players, and those are the only players that would not consider this a par 4. If you wanted to make this a true par 4, then moving the pin back and down some (not far enough for high water to infringe on the green) then you could. I believe we have a bit of room to move back there, even though its state land.
I highly doubt this would result in more 3's, because the line of your first drive is more important. You want to avoid the hill on the right a lot more, so you can't turn over (or fade out as a lefty) nearly as much as the current hole without being punished.
I think it would reduce the 5's, but that is because you would have a lot less random kicks into the woods or river due to the better defined line. Scoring would be based more on skill than luck.
It wouldn't be perfect but it is better than the current hole and would be a lot better than yet another boring birdie hole at DR, which is what a hole with the tee at the base of the hill would be.
As for hole 11, your claims of a safety difference between the teepad on the road and the one to the right are greatly exaggerated. Neither one is very safe, nor is either one terribly unsafe. The difference is probably negligible.