[LJ Jubner]

As far as I know Guy and I am the only TD's to offer on the tee signs the avg Score for 5 divisions and how each holes is handicapped (14,17,18 being hardest 1,5,10 being easiest) since 2006

Originally Posted by Skookum

First of all the little barb about us MC boy whining. I don't remember saying anything about my play or our performance because this issues has nothing to do with that. I take pride in stepping back from my skill level (sub 900) to look at these thing objectively. I use the math and methods provided by the PDGA to determine the relative strengths and weakness of individual holes and courses. I do not rely on my gut or my score (because i'm terrible). I assure you as a "designer" (I use that term loosely) we did not set par, we created it. We modified our holes till they hit our desired average strokes based on 1000 rated player (our at least tried our best). .

I was speaking about myself when I said "whining" and it was about my play not the course layout or what par is. Yes, (As you are designing your holes) Par is what you make it and based on whatever criteria you choose to employ. When SeaTac was built the pDGA criteria was not available. Not that it's a bible... I am just not sure how we ever survived before 2005

Originally Posted by Skookum

As far as handicapping goes, it had zero bearing on the SSA calculations for the event. Handicapping only helps to determine the winner between to players it's does not affect their ability to play (although we may tie one of Crabtrees arms behind his back).
...From a competitive stand point if we want to be taken seriously things like using "par" as word that means the same thing regardless of what course you happen to be standing on at the moment is essential. If we are talking about just going and have fun.... well we wouldn't be having this conversation right now, we'd be golfing.

Handicapping makes it so two different skill levels can play against each other and have the scores be somewhat close at the end. And Yes both groups are equally as rabid when it comes to competition

My suggestion for kyle is make him play either super class or lids

Side note to play in a P.G.A. event you need to be a scratch (par) or better player

Originally Posted by Skookum

Your ball golf points are a little off. The pars in ball golf are created by a professional designer who crafts the course so that Pro golfers from Blue tee pad score an average that meets the par. Many ball golf course have different pars on the same hole (usually from the womans tees).

You are right ball golfer don't whine about par because the sport is mature enough after all these years that things like par are UNIFORM between courses. A par 4 on this course is equivalent to a par 4 on that course. Not, "Well on our course we call it a par 3" I wonder though if there was a golf course that had a 600 yard par three would player complain? I will have to always wonder because holes like that don't exist, at least not on PGA level courses.

Why even bring ball golf into this as it really speaks more to my points than yours. They use math and science to create balance courses and OMG what is the first question two golfer ask each other when they meet? What is your handicap? As a group they are way more plugged into that stuff than we are.
.

The only difference between us and Fazio, Nicklaus or Ross design is someone paid them to build it. Either group tries to design something that is
Feasible, aesthetically pleasing and fits the terrain. the bigger budgets actually move dirt around.

Actually handicap is #3
What the course record? is #1
and
Where is the first tee is #2

The variance you speak of is more likely addressed by the type of Ball golf course and it's not more then 2-3 strokes.

Pitch and Putt:

1. Par threes
2. and at the longest 250 yds
3. normally only 9 holes 2000 yds.
4. one set of tees.
5. pretty simple greens
6. no rough
7. no hazards
8. 3-4 clubs + putter
9. Walked

Executive:

1. Either 9 or 18
2. ]maybe one 5* and even number of 3's and 4's (*for 9 maybe two 5's for 18) Longest hole (either 4 or 5) 400 YDS.
3. Built by design to have fast play.
4. 9 as little as 2700 to 6000 for 18.
5. Two sets of tees
6. maybe tougher greens to lengthen the course
7. a few hazards.
8. moderate rough
9. Full bag of irons and maybe a 3 or 4 wood.
10. Walk or ride

Municipal:

1. Full length 6800+
2. Even number of 3's,4's and 5's on each side. usually one 5 and three 3 the rest 4.
3. Multiple tees and distances but still same par/hole.
4. Tough greens
5. plenty of hazards
6. plenty of rough
7. Full bag
8. Walk or ride

* Someday's Tees are back, some days the move up one or two spots (normally determined only by maintenance issues IE heavy play)

Resort: Same as Municipal but in a better location and higher fees. I take shoes, gloves, balls and tees. I rent clubs Definitely ride

T.P.C. Tournament Players Club or P.G.A. type courses

1. Monster 3's
2. once in awhile a short 5 (for members) is made into a long 4 for the touring pros.
3. Hardest greens
4. hazards force players to work around them.
5. Rough that covers your shoes
6. Full bag
7. Definitely ride