At the 8 Dec club meeting the club will be discussing the new course possibilities at Peoples Park, which is adjacent to High Bridge Park. If you have a chance, print out the attached map, walk the park, and bring your layout to the meeting. At today's meeting I promised I would bring copies of this map so MEMBERS could walk the area and submit their layouts at a later time. Get a head start and do it before the snow falls. The city has said that the course must not come within 200 feet of the water or parking areas, hence the yellow line on the map. Please take notice of this when selecting your basket and tee pad locations.
For those unfamiliar with the area, the bridge just beyond hole 7's basket is visible on the map in the bottom right corner (left of the words Eye alt)
Joe, we need to talk to the Parks Dept. and see if we could have tee boxes nearer than 200' to the water. We would still keep baskets 200' from any water. That would insure that we were throwing away from the river at all times. Also the flood plain in the ENE corner (gray area) of the map cannot be used because it floods every spring.
Maybe we could get Jeff to talk to Parks Dept.
Peoples Park Progress
A layout is in place in People's Park, see the Winter weekend doubles Thread to download a map of the current Bucket layout and tee position. BIG thanks to the guys who built the buckets, if you see Rob Graves or Kevin Sakus, make sure to tell them thanks.
As I've said in the other thread, this layout is temporary. Please bring both the map in this thread to draw your ideas on and the map from the doubles thread so you can see the layout we're using now. Also check out Cory Davis' post about course design and how we can use the stuff on there to make it truly better.
Right now there are some issues with the temp layout that can be fixed fairly easily.
Hole 1 doesn't quite sit right with me. I like the idea of it, but the only good low route is the sidearm/lefty S curve through the trees, and it doesn't produce a birdie opportunities even on a good shot. The high routes provide good birdie opportunities, but require a decent arm to throw them. Right now there's no reason to throw through the middle and no way to play it safe for people that throw less than 350'. I feel like a small adjustment could make this hole really good.
Hole 2 may have a small chance of throwing over the bank, so moving the teebox northwest some should correct the angle and remove that risk.
Hole 4 has trees on the left side that may grow to remove a needed shot option. The teebox was previously on the other side of the road which put it in the line of fire of bad shots from hole 3, but somewhere in the middle (not on the road) can probably be found that solves both situations.
Hole 8 is in a swampy area that is nasty right now and can probably be a lot worse. There is likely a better hole option somewhere in between 7 and 9, or elsewhere in the park.
Hole 11 has a very lucky green. The basket will be moved out into the more open area on the left.
Hole 12 right now is just kind of long and boring, without a large enough landing area on the drive and a wide open approach area to the pin. It will be likely have the tee and/or basket shortened, and the teepad may be move into the area in between 11 and 1 that is unused in order to create a more interesting shot.
That being said, its a temp layout only and people need to start thinking about other great holes and layouts that could be put out on this beautiful chunk of land. Keep in mind that we cannot clear ANY trees to make this happen.
Some cockslurper found that his favorite place to slink away from his wife may be compromised by a disc golf course, and broke the bases off four of the bucket holes (5 through 8).
Only one board was broken, so the rest can just be nailed back on.
I'm bringing a hammer next time I go down there.
Also, a lot of the surveyor's tape was taken.
Bring a phone when you play down there. If you see some douchebag breaking pins, then find out who they are (ask, get their license plate number, take a pic with your camera phone, whatever) and call the police on them for vandalizing property.
I moved hole 11's basket to the left some and made it a touch deeper to make the overhand route a bit tougher. The green is no longer lucky; if you have a good drive you will have a good putt.
I left 12's pin where it was and threw from the top of the hill, just to the left of the path. It is a better hole this way. There is a straight route, which risks a 4 if you miss the gap but I was able to birdie this way. The lefty and righty hyzer routes are much safer 3's, but you have to be able to absolutely bomb a hyzer for one of these two routes to grab a birdie.
Has Jeff talked to parks dept. yet.....
....about tee boxes being closer to the river? I know that this question was asked a couple of months ago, but I'm a little out of the loop when it comes to these discussions. I would like to do some scouting around and want to know if the parameters of using the land are different than what the map shows. I saw that Bob posted something on this subject and was just curious to know if we could tee off from outside the line on the map.
Attached is my understanding of the where we cannot put teeboxes or pins. Jeff Crum has gotten this information from the Parks Dept.
We can't be within 200 feet of the parking lot. I don't think it was specifically mentioned, but I cordoned off the path to the bridge on the map, since it is a high foot traffic area.
The area that is marked off in the northwest floods every year so we can't put anything there.
The triangle of land at the north end was specifically mentioned as being somewhere we cannot put pins, teepads, or play through due to a nude beach in the area.
Beyond that, we are allowed to put teepads near the river throwing inland. They just cannot be too close to the edge due to erosion issues (hole 3 at Downriver being an example of this).
The general rule is that there can be no chance of an errant disc going over the edge of the bank. If there's any doubt, then use the specific rule: 200 feet from the river for teeboxes and pins.
I believe the West Hills area south of the river has the same basic rules. There can be no chance of a disc going into the river or into the road, for the safety of our golfers and people driving by.
As far as course flow, I think the preferred layout is 12 holes at People's Park and 6 holes in the West Hills area south of the river, but that isn't set in stone by any means. If you have 14 amazing holes at People's Park and 4 amazing holes in West Hills, then no one is going to complain.
Do we need to make an 18 hole course, lets make a 15 hole course maybe with a cpl par 4's to make 54 par, I think we have enough land on the peoples park side to do that. It is a long walk from one side to the other and don't know if it is worth the walk for a cpl holes.
You would need nine par 4's to make a 15 hole course be par 54.
I think a walk or drive to the West Hills area is fine as long as its for good holes. Its honestly about 500 feet.
Think of it like this: you walk that far going from the teebox to your lie three times.
I had a lot of fun, playing the event and the day before.
The #4 Tee needs to be moved. I fired a driver a little hard, and low, at #3, and it would've taken someone's toupee off, on #4, if it hadn't hit one of the trees at the back of the green, and I couldn't see them below the hill, from the #3 tee, so I never thought to yell FORE. When I got up there, they were chatting, eight feet below my fallen disc, oblivious to the near disaster.
I wish I would've taken notes, because there were one or two other tee/green problems. Oh, one is #7 or 8, which fairway parallel's a path, with a thick row of trees between them. Downside of that one is, the righty shot is giant helix over the trees and path, hoping to come back to the landing area, of which, the right side/path is completely blind from the tee. Quite dangerous to pedestrians. Safer to take the tee out in the open and throw across the path, with an open view of pedestrians and bikers, both directions.
I also pose a question to the Board. May the teesigns reflect a sponsor's donation, and logo, Of which could be purchased for the price of the hole? ($500?). Many local businesses and/or clubs, even individuals, may step up and finish buying us a course.
This message sponsored by Stimpi Ridge Disc Golf
Hey Stimpi, I'd love to walk the layout this week and get some of those ideas put to use. Really wish I could have come out and seen how it played with 49 people on the course. Give me a call if you've got time for a round. Oh, and thanks again for sponsoring the fundraiser. Joe
Here's my take on the Joe/Kevin 18 hole layout.
Seems beginner friendly and easy to navigate.
It uses the land well; you walk over most of the land in PP and has pins on obvious greens for the most part.
The course plays consistently and isn't lucky, outside of hole 5. You are generally rewarded for an accurate shot and punished for missing.
Hole 6 is a solid technical hole. There is a wider lane on the left where you need to shape your shot, and a tighter lane on the right where you can throw a simpler RHBH hyzer but you need more accuracy.
Hole 10 is a really good hole. The straight shot narrows as you get closer, rewarding good shots proportionally to how well they hit the line. There are also high hyzer routes that are viable, and they are punished for going too long (jail) or coming in too short (taller trees) so they aren't too easy.
Hole 11 is pretty good. There is a tight straight shot, a tighter righty hyzer, and a more open route over the top. I personally would move the pin to the right more to add a bit more challenge to the over the top lefty hyzer and to reward the tighter lines more to balance out the hole more. This would also lower the danger of crossing into 12's fairway.
Hole 12 is a nice, fair tunnel shot.
Hole 16 has some nice technical aspects to it. The more open lefty hyzer that has to go wide vs. the tighter righty hyzer that can take a short path to the pin adds a nice balance to the hole. I also like shooting out of the woods into the open for some reason.
Stuff that could use improvement:
Relatively long walk to hole 1.
Safety issues with hole 2/3/4. An errant drive on two could hit people on 3 or 4's teeboxes. 3's teebox is mostly protected by a tree, but a LHBH could fade right in there and clock them. Any shot wide enough could hit the people on 4, and they would never see it coming.
Hole 5 is poke and hopey in the current setup, and the pin is hard to see from the tee. I think there might be better lines through those woods.
Hole 7 can get pretty nasty and swampy in wet conditions. Not a game breaker, but something to be aware of.
Safety issues with holes 9/10. My group had a long wait here during the round on Saturday. This area was a big log jam due to even slightly errant shots landing in each other fairways. Someone on 10 yanked their drive right onto our green, and one person from our group on 9 almost hit people putting on 10. I think 9 could be moved to go more east/west along the path rather than north/south along the knoll. You would have to make it so that you could easily see other park users on the path, however.
Safety issues with holes 11/12. I think this may have been one of the issues that Stimpi was talking about with the RHBH helix, but I couldn't tell from his description. Its possible to cross into each other's fairways. This isn't a huge issue, but something to be aware of.
The pin location doesn't feel right on hole 14. You can be 15 feet from the basket on either side and not have a putt. Pushing the pin back 25 feet would make it a much better hole. This would make driving the pin straight riskier, and gives a safe approach from the safe drive down to the right in the basin.
Hole 18 doesn't feel like a very good hole to me. The hole just feels cramped, especially the tee. The tee would still be cramped even after being leveled out. It just screams thumberphobia. The hyzer lines feel too sharp for how short the hole is. There is a fun big RHFH hyzer route, but it just feels stupid throwing it with that big branch right in the way.
This layout doesn't really leave a lot of room for improvement or alternate tees with different difficulty, which will hurt its long-term use and viability as a tournament course.
Kevin said the vision for this layout is that it is supposed to be short, technical, and for beginners. The main problem is that its not really technical. A technical course (even a short Red course) should require a wide variety of shots. You should often need to either shape your line, hit a gap/tunnel, or both. Also, this course is severely lacking in risk/reward options or choices in general, though can be a hard issue to overcome with such a short course.
Here's my count of some things:
11 pure straight shots: 2, 3, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17
14 basically straight shots: Add holes 1, 5, 11
Line-shaping technical holes: 5, 6, 11, 16
Hitting a gap/tunnel technical holes: 5, 6, 10, 11, 12, 16, 18
Basically, this layout comes out to a bunch of straight shots, and 7 holes (5 of which are good in their current incarnation) that are actually technical. The course lacks variety in a lot of ways.
I think you guys could improve this layout in a lot of ways and make it a pretty good technical Red course. However, as I've laid out in another thread, there is a better way to plan a course at this park.
Played it again yesterday and I do like the layout. With a few tweaks it can be a really nice short course.
As noted above, Holes 2-3-4 have some crowding/safety concerns, as does 13.
Fave holes: 4, 5, 8, 9, 10, 16, 17
Least favorite: 18
7 and 14 share the same problem with pin placement in that if you are just a little long (7) or a little wide (14) you have no putt. Otherwise they are good holes.
I love the way the character of the land changes from one hole to the next, deciduous trees to pine forest to open.
I wonder about turning 15 around to shoot downhill. It would make more sense to me in terms of the walk from 14's pin to 15's tee, and 15's pin to to 16's tee. But if it was turned around, would it be a safety concern with the path running behind the pin?
Anyway, good job guys. Even if nothing changes I will enjoy playing it a lot.
For purposes of discussion I made a map based on how I remember the course. Hopefully it's close.
So played People's a couple of times now and I have some feedback.
Love the land use. Great emphasis on a little amount of area.
Love how quick this has all come together. Makes people stand up and notice that Disc Golfers care about their community and their sport as the same thing.
Now with that all said, I've got a question. Are all the bucket placements at the moment the final locations?
Is their any alternate pins laid out or is that even a possibility.
Final one, since this is supposed to be a 'family and beginner' friendly course, shouldn't the amount of tunnel shots be limited? It seemed to me that most of the holes require a decent snap and low shots. While it's fine for most of us that have played a decent amount, won't these harder shots force people back to Highbridge since most of those shots are open?
With all that said, I'm truly excited for the first time in months about the future of Disc Golf in Spokane. Bout time stuff started moving in the right direction for us plastic hukkin junkies.
Hey everyone, I've been gone for a few weeks and wanted to check up on the course. What's happening with it, or are you guys all to busy practicing to empress Feldberg? Keep me, and eveyone else informed, the time change is a MF. Joe
The course is pretty good as far as how many walking paths trail in and out of the park. I see a long pin on 7, a long on 8, 3, 18, 15 and especially on 14. Some of the tees could be moved back or added to provide a different angle to the pins. The shots that could go to far on 2 could easily be deflected with a 10 foot piece of netting. As far as 4 being dangerous it would only be to walkers and I think they can be easily seen. Hole 5 is a little poke and hopish but the lefty hyzer line should open up and the more it is played the easier it will get. I have played courses like this in many big cities and they are the kind of courses that are important to help growing the game and to getting an upshot game dialed.
Shooting downhill on 15 seems cool but it doesn't seem very safe. It also seems like it would be an easy thumber hole. The course is beginner in distance wise but it requires quite a bit of accuracy which is good. I really like hole 12 and 13 alot. Looks like 12 will be a thumber soon because branches are getting snapped at a regular rate by Thumberholics. Props to Kevin on his fight to keep putting the course back together on a daily basis.
Yep, thanks Kevin :trophy:
I do feel 13's pin should be moved west a little bit. The path along the right side is mostly blind from the tee and walkers are right in the danger zone for the righty hyzer.
I play People's Park about once a week since the crowds are still hanging at High Bridge and Downriver, and so far I love it. It definitely plays shorter, but it is still quite technical and requires more accuracy over power. I am very curious about hole sponsorships. While I may not be able to sponsor an entire hole, my friends and I would definitely be willing to contribute to the cost of a basket. My favorite holes on the course are some of the tighter ones that require the technical shots. Hole 4 is my favorite open shot and I hope that it won't get moved. Hole 7 setup now is quite nice, but the path right down the middle can interfere if someone is walking through, but I'm willing to deal with that for the shot. Hole 13 basket could be moved, and my disc has landed right in the middle of the path to the right, but I like the pad position as it makes for a very nice possible RHBH hyzer shot over the trees. I disagree with the naysayer's on Hole 14 and think the basket should stay. It requires an accurate second shot to get a good look for par. Leave Hole 15 up top and throw from down below I say! That's a fun shot uphill with a tight approach. 16 sucks and is my nemesis so far. 17's fun. Hole 18 may be a little tight, but I have had good success with a RHBH shot thrown basically down the road while allowing it to cut back right towards the basket. That is all. Still curious about hole donations to get permanent baskets in there!
Timber, where did you get that shot of the People's Park area?
I like it a lot better than the Google Earth one that I've been using.
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