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  • Rules Question: 2 meters and unplayable lie?

    Here is a question that I came up with while playing the BSF. A guy in my group was stuck high in a very thick tree after teeing off. His lie on the ground below the disc was horrible indeed. He declared an unplayable lie and proceeded to return to the tee pad to take what is now his 3rd shot. My question is: what would the ruling be if the 2 meter rule was in effect? Would he receive a 2m penalty and his unplayable lie penalty such that his next shot is now his 4th?

  • #2
    I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure it would just be an unplayable lie.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by Kenny B View Post
      Here is a question that I came up with while playing the BSF. A guy in my group was stuck high in a very thick tree after teeing off. His lie on the ground below the disc was horrible indeed. He declared an unplayable lie and proceeded to return to the tee pad to take what is now his 3rd shot. My question is: what would the ruling be if the 2 meter rule was in effect? Would he receive a 2m penalty and his unplayable lie penalty such that his next shot is now his 4th?
      There is NO double penalty situation in the rules.

      When a player is "OB" they have the option of playing it where the lie would be OR throwing from the previous spot. Which in this case was the tee.

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      • #4
        So the two meter rule is an OB rule?

        I guess I have never played with the rule in effect. When in effect do you take a stroke, then mark your lie under the lodged disc OR play from last lie? Treating it like a strangely pointless OB?

        I guess I always thought it was it own thing. You take your penalty, mark your lie and continue play. This view could be a little confusing if after marking your lie you decide you are in an unplayable spot.

        (OK after a quick peek at the rule book. I think you get a stroke for two meter rule (803.08B) and if you disc is inbounds and you decided the lie is unplayable (803.06A) you would take another stroke. The two penalties are unrelated)
        Last edited by Skookum; June 11th, 2010, 04:30 PM.
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        • #5
          Currently, the player above 2 meters, when the rule is in effect, must first establish a lie below the disc and get the 2m penalty. Then, they may take another unplayable penalty and return to the previous lie. This is an issue being discussed by the Rules Committee to prevent this double penalty. In the future, it sounds like when the 2m rule is in effect, you may either play below the disc or return to the previous lie and receive just one penalty throw either way. But not now under current rules.

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          • #6
            Under current rules

            Originally posted by Chuck Kennedy View Post
            Currently, the player above 2 meters, when the rule is in effect, must first establish a lie below the disc and get the 2m penalty. Then, they may take another unplayable penalty and return to the previous lie. This is an issue being discussed by the Rules Committee to prevent this double penalty. In the future, it sounds like when the 2m rule is in effect, you may either play below the disc or return to the previous lie and receive just one penalty throw either way. But not now under current rules.
            Under 803.06 the player is the sole judge as to whether any lie is unplayable. Therefore the player's judgement can supercede any need to mark the lie below the caught 2m+ disc and eliminates the need under 803.08 b to assess that one-throw penalty. The player's right to determine the unplayability of their lie includes all criteria they see fit, including the fact that their disc is above 2m. The player's advantage would be best served by insisting upon the following: 'If my disc is above 2m I declare my lie as unplayable and take my penalty under 803.06 and will take my next shot pursuant to 803.06 (1) or (2).......If the 'unplayable lie' rules haven't changed since I last looked the current rules should call for a one stroke penalty but no more.

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            • #7
              Nope. The key word is "lie" is unplayable. When the disc is above the playing surface, a lie has not been established for the player to call it unplayable. The player has to establish the lie directly under the disc regardless whether the 2m rule is in effect, before the lie can be declared unplayable. The same is true when a player goes OB. If the last point inbounds is in a nasty thornbush, the player would normally have to take the OB penalty then declare their new lie unplayable and take the unplayable penalty. HOWEVER, since they could also choose to rethrow from the original lie after going OB AND the unplayable provides the same option, when a player goes OB, there's no reason to do anything other than take the OB penalty and rethrow from the original lie. Unfortunately, at the moment, the 2m penalty does not allow the rethrow from the previous lie as the new lie. So, the double penalty is potentially in play when the 2m rule is in effect and the player has a nasty lie below their disc and wants to rethrow from the original lie.

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              • #8
                Has this really ever come up? If so the player got screwed.

                Were they playing for prize or lunch money?

                So I would say,"I know it's 2M." I am throwing a provisional (from it's last established position) with the intention of abandoning it if it is. One stroke penalty.

                This is double jeopardy. Being penalized twice for one throw. It's bad enough to be 2M but then force an unplayable on top of it. Seems like just piling on to me.

                The real question is: Do I need to destroy another players chance just so I can win?
                rewindb.com

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                • #9
                  There were times in the past when players could get a 3-throw penalty but the rules have been improved since then to reduce multiple penalties for the same incident. This might be the last one.

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                  • #10
                    Actually the wrong lie rule is also out of whack.

                    Old rule If a player plays from another's lie It is deemed a practice throw. The player will then play from his correct lie, complete the hole and add 1 stroke for said throw

                    If the *group decides it's one penalty stroke (not 2 like the new rule states) but the TD concludes that in fact it was 2 stokes (new interpretation) and then by default the card is also wrong that's also seems like double jeopardy. Being penalized for misinterpreting the rules during play seems like a harsh punishment especially if the player is not intentionally trying to cheat.

                    And What of the group decision. Why is there no penalty for each member of the group for not knowing the rules?
                    rewindb.com

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                    • #11
                      The missed falling putt
                      I call a falling putt on myself. Should it be seconded immediately? I say no. It should be called and seconded after the hole is finished. Same effect but not beneficial to the player
                      rewindb.com

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                      • #12
                        Since Jub just spun this conversation towards falling putts, I have a question.

                        If someone (maybe Jub, maybe not) misses their putt and the group called a falling putt on him, does the person really get a second chance to make this? I would hope the miss would stand and they wouldn't get a second chance because of a rule violation. I would think the person would get warned and their next falling putt would be a stroke?

                        What if someone knew immediately when the disc left their hand that it was a bad putt and intentionally stepped forward hoping someone would call a falling putt on him?

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                        • #13
                          You're coming at the situation as if players will want to cheat as opposed to being honorable which is how the rules for golf and now disc golf were written. If someone cheats by calling a foot fault on a likely missed putt so they get another chance, the idea is that they suffer the perception of being a cheater and not being honorable. Not saying it's right, just the orientation for how the rules have been written.

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                          • #14
                            I agree completely. In ultimate frisbee that's a spirit foul and they are publicly caned (just kidding about being caned).

                            But seriously, what if the guy misses the putt and someone in his group calls a falling putt. Does this guy really get a second chance to make his putt?

                            Thanks Chuck. Appreciate your knowledge on this board.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by LakeStevensBA View Post

                              But seriously, what if the guy misses the putt and someone in his group calls a falling putt. Does this guy really get a second chance to make his putt?
                              I saw something like this at a tournament once, though on a drive instead of a putt. On a card that was on a nearby hole, a group had a junior with them. I heard one guy call a foot fault on the kid, and I thought to myself "Seriously? Calling penalties on a junior? What a dick!" But then I saw that the kid had actually shanked his first drive, and by getting the foot fault called, he got to retee without penalty. I guess that could be construed as circumventing the rules, but I wasn't offended by it.
                              Last edited by Tim; June 14th, 2010, 09:34 AM.
                              Untwist thine undergarments, 'tis but a Frisbee.

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