Rules Comment: Mandatory takes precedence over OB Page Title Module
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  • #16
    Where in the rules is there mention of a Mando 'line'?
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    • #17
      I know there is no such thing as a mando "line". What I'm saying is that there are areas of playing surface on this hole that are OB if you get there by one line and IB if you get there by another. By saying that the line (and not the tree) is a mando then you get penalized for crossing in front of the tree which is the intent of the rule. The penalty could be a DZ or it could be play it from where it went out. If the tree is going to be played as a mando then it would be important to paint the mando line to the left of the tree so that it's obvious to see if it's been crossed.

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      • #18
        I understand the point Edgie, why be penalized for taking one route or another that both end in the same place, but, SE1 at Steilly uses the Mando "tree" for safety. You end up throwing right at the teepad for SE 3 if you take out the mando.
        A bad day on the golf course is better than a good day at work!

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        • #19
          Right, and I think Eric is still saying that you'd have to steer clear of that. But the OB line running up to the mando is the thing that compounds the situation. In most other mando situations, you can be short of the mando and to the "wrong" side, but still be able to play your lie with no penalty (other than being in a shitty situation). Here, you can be short of the mando and be OB, whereas another shot could fly on the good side of the mando, and roll backwards to end up at the same spot, but not be OB. If there were an actual river or road there, both discs would be OB, but here it's just an artificial boundary.

          I can see the logic behind making the line a mando, but I think it'd just be more confusing for most people. Shot C probably happens in such a low percentage that most people wouldn't question it, and if it did happen, it'd just be one of those oddities.

          Of course, there's always the easy solution of taking the OB line away (I promise I wouldn't complain).
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          • #20
            The vertical line is either an OB line or a missed mando line. There's no need for it to be both. If it's a mando line, then you can't have the drop zone as the last point a disc crosses it. That's only possible if it's an OB line. There can only be one drop zone for missing a mando. If it's an OB line then that will not prevent shots from being thrown to the left of the tree. An alternative to the option I proposed for moving back the drop zone would be to add another OB line to your drawing. If you had an OB line that went from the mando tree diagonally up to the left toward 10 or 11 o'clock, then shots C & D would be OB and be marked based on OB rules and shot B would have missed the mando and go to the drop zone. Only shot A would be inbounds.

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            • #21
              I think to maintain the original hole design and to make things simple, the following should be done.

              1. Keep the mando tree and drop zone the same as designed.
              2. Keep the OB line from the road to the mando tree the same.
              3. During tournaments, clearly mark the missed mando line where Eric has sketched it and also define it as an OB line so that the OB area is bounded by the road, two OB lines, and the fence (not currently sketched in Eric's graphic).

              The following would result.

              1. Shots short of the mando and over the OB line throw from where they were last inbounds with a one stroke penalty.
              2. Shots that miss the mando, but land beyond the OB/missed mando line go to the drop zone with a one stroke penalty and no one complains because the disc would be resting in a clearly designated inbounds area.
              3. Shots like C in the graphic...tough luck, don't throw so close to the mando next time.

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              • #22
                Got to thinking more and here is another way to explain it. The hole is set up like this (just without the playground)...

                Pretend your looking out from the tee and in front of you, a little left is a nice rectangular, fenced playground with lots of little kids having fun. That playground is OB (obviously). Now, on the right hand corner furthest from you is an old tree planted a long time ago that has grown and enveloped the fence at the corner. That tree is a mando because not only do you not want discs landing in the playground, you also don't want people even trying to throw over it. The teepad, tree, and playground's far fence are all situated such that the missed mando line exactly follows the playground's far fence

                So if player throws into the playground, they are OB, play the next shot from they were last in bounds with a one stroke penalty.

                If a player throws over the playground and lands on the other side of the playground's far fence, then they would've missed the mando and have to go to the drop zone with a one stroke penalty.

                Lastly, if a player makes the mando, hits the ground and rolls around to the playground's far fence and goes through the new hole in the fence that little Jonny from across the street cut out while playing with his dad's new letherman tool, then it sucks to be you, ha ha! You're OB, play from where you were last in bounds.

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                • #23
                  That would work. The part that will confuse a few players is why they can't throw completely over the OB area and not get penalized.

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                  • #24
                    Shot C is not safe, it is OB. Anything "left of the OB line" is OB. The OB line continues due west from the tree (if North is up in the sketch) at a right angle to the red OB line in the sketch (until it hits the fence, not shown) which becomes the OB line from there. The yellow line is drawn properly, but it is the mando perpendicular, NOT the OB continuation. In fact, Shot B is BARELY in bounds.
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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by TreeLove View Post
                      Shot C is not safe, it is OB. Anything "left of the OB line" is OB. The OB line continues due west from the tree (if North is up in the sketch) at a right angle to the red OB line in the sketch (until it hits the fence, not shown) which becomes the OB line from there. The yellow line is drawn properly, but it is the mando perpendicular, NOT the OB continuation. In fact, Shot B is BARELY in bounds.
                      I don't think that the OB continuation is relevant here, the mando tree ends the OB line, so it doesn't continue at 90 degrees like normal. The only perpendicular line that is relevant is the mando line, and that is drawn at 90 degrees from line of play to the basket.
                      A bad day on the golf course is better than a good day at work!

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by olydiscgolf View Post
                        I don't think that the OB continuation is relevant here, the mando tree ends the OB line, so it doesn't continue at 90 degrees like normal. The only perpendicular line that is relevant is the mando line, and that is drawn at 90 degrees from line of play to the basket.
                        I would say an OB continuation line from the tree to the fence is only relevant here for shots that go to the right of the mando tree but roll or bounce back towards the OB area.

                        I think that line has to be clearly marked for all future tournaments because I don't think the PDGA rules provides direction for where that line is in the absence of a clearly marked line.

                        Also, another thing I recently re-remembered is that the line for whether or not you missed a mando (in the absence of a marked line) is perpendicular to the line from the teepad to the mando, not the mando to the basket.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Kenny B View Post
                          I would say an OB continuation line from the tree to the fence is only relevant here for shots that go to the right of the mando tree but roll or bounce back towards the OB area.

                          I think that line has to be clearly marked for all future tournaments because I don't think the PDGA rules provides direction for where that line is in the absence of a clearly marked line.

                          Also, another thing I recently re-remembered is that the line for whether or not you missed a mando (in the absence of a marked line) is perpendicular to the line from the teepad to the mando, not the mando to the basket.
                          A player shouldn't be penalized for making the mando and then rolling back out of bounds. The mando ends the OB line. Once your around the mando there should be no OB.

                          Your right about the mando line playing perpendicular from a straight line from tee to mando.
                          A bad day on the golf course is better than a good day at work!

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by olydiscgolf View Post
                            A player shouldn't be penalized for making the mando and then rolling back out of bounds. The mando ends the OB line. Once your around the mando there should be no OB.

                            Your right about the mando line playing perpendicular from a straight line from tee to mando.
                            I think we should think of that area as a lake (or playground as described above). It shouldn't matter if you make a mando; if it's in the water, it's OB.

                            That hole needs to have all sides of the OB area clearly marked. The mando tree being there is not what makes it an OB area. It's an OB area because inside it is the Teepad and fairway of SE hole 3. It should be OB no matter how you get there. At least that's my opinion

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                            • #29
                              Well said.... add a line to complete the OB area. Also, include the Teepad for SE hole 3 in the OB area.

                              If you don't want to end up OB, then don't take on the added risk by trying to throw far. Play it safe and set up for your second shot. Par is a good score on that hole and birdies are rare. I have seen lots of fours or worse scored on this hole.

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                              • #30
                                Yes, you need to add a line somewhere so that OB area is completely enclosed from the back side. We've seen problems at tournaments where a painted OB line just stops and it's not obvious where the line is if someone lands beyond that end point. Always curl painted OB lines back to some "permanent" OB area like a wall, body of water, fence, street, cement, etc.

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