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  • You make the call

    Here's the scenario:

    Player throws drive into the schule. Player's second shot is lost. Player throws tantrum because nobody found his disc. (3 minutes was declared to begin and was timed accurately.) Player goes back to where he threw his second shot to throw again - there are now 3 or 4 cards backed up on the hole due to the length of the tantrum.

    Now the player is shooting for four. Player throws the same shot, except worse, and that one is not found. Player goes to look for his 1st lost disc while everybody searches for his second lost disc. Different player, from a different card, notes to the TD that there are 4 cards waiting to play the hole.

    Player now heads back to his original lie, which is the rule, and is now shooting for six. TD pulls the player from the schule and gives the player a "drop" near the basket and tells him he's shooting for six from there. Player misses the putt - the "drop" was 20-30 ft. from the pin - and takes a seven.

    What should have happened given the tantrum, length of tantrum creating an enormous back-up and the rules regarding properly playing a hole?
    Golf appeals to the idiot in us and the child. Just how childlike golf players become is proven by their frequent inability to count past five. - John Updike

  • #2
    For the tantrum, player should have received a warning from the TD and told that the next violation would result in a stroke as would all subsequent violations. If it continued to get out of hand, the TD had the option of DQing the player.

    For the strokes and the backup, I would have rather seen the player have to go back to throw his 6th stroke from his previous lie. This would be in line with the rules and would have been fair to the other players in the field. As it is, he got a huge break and I believe it was his only mistake of the round.

    Off of the point, the player did go to the TD after the event and apologize. Not saying that changes anything but I was glad to be able to witness that part - as payback for having to watch the tantrum.
    ďI believe I can hit 18 greens, hit every fairway, you know ó Vision 54, which means you birdie every hole, thatís in the back of my mind. I want to putt better, chip better. That day when I hit 18 greens and one putt, Iíll know Iím a complete golfer. Will that ever happen? Iím not sure, but itís possible. The 54 vision is always in the back of my mind.Ē
    ~Annika SŲrenstam

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by all2common View Post
      Here's the scenario:

      Player throws drive into the schule. Player's second shot is lost. Player throws tantrum because nobody found his disc. (3 minutes was declared to begin and was timed accurately.) Player goes back to where he threw his second shot to throw again - there are now 3 or 4 cards backed up on the hole due to the length of the tantrum.

      Now the player is shooting for four. Player throws the same shot, except worse, and that one is not found. Player goes to look for his 1st lost disc while everybody searches for his second lost disc. Different player, from a different card, notes to the TD that there are 4 cards waiting to play the hole.

      Player now heads back to his original lie, which is the rule, and is now shooting for six. TD pulls the player from the schule and gives the player a "drop" near the basket and tells him he's shooting for six from there. Player misses the putt - the "drop" was 20-30 ft. from the pin - and takes a seven.

      What should have happened given the tantrum, length of tantrum creating an enormous back-up and the rules regarding properly playing a hole?
      It looks like there are several oppportunities to conuslt to the rulebook here. Let's start with the "tantrum". 801.01 B:
      B. Players should take care not to produce any distracting
      noises or any potential visual distractions for other players who are
      throwing. Examples of discourteous actions are: shouting, cursing,
      freestyling, slapping course equipment, throwing out of turn, throwing
      or kicking golf bags, throwing minis, and advancing on the fairway
      beyond the away player. Shouting at an appropriate time to warn someone
      in danger of being struck by a disc is not a violation of courtesy.
      Depending on the tantrum, the player could have been given a warning and then stroked for subsequent outbursts.

      801.02 indicates that an official can allow groups to play through while a dispute is being worked out.

      The drop zone should not have been used unless it was declared before the start of tournament play.

      My best guess based upon the information you have provided is that the TD should have allowed the other groups to play through. The player then should have thrown his 6th shot from the original lie. A warning should have been given for the tantrum and a penalty stoke (or strokes) added if it persisted.


      Were you in the group or the backup?

      Comment


      • #4
        In the group. I felt bad for the TD because the whole situation created undue pressure on him to make a call.
        Golf appeals to the idiot in us and the child. Just how childlike golf players become is proven by their frequent inability to count past five. - John Updike

        Comment


        • #5
          I personally don't think the other groups should have played through. But I do know the player would have been stroked for each of these as separate instances or rule violations. Now what kind of a converstaion he had with those 3-4 group in the back up at lunch is an entirely different story.

          A. His tantrum His outburst did not need a warning. Swearing is a warning, A tantrum is a stroke
          B. Looking for a disc that had already been abandoned while neglecting the disc in play
          Last edited by LJ Jubner; August 10th, 2009, 11:11 AM. Reason: Added thought in bold
          rewindb.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Did the outcome of the incident affect the final payout and would 2-3 strokes have affected it more? What was the location of the lost disc like, was it a ravine or thick blackberry bushes? Was there any poison oak, sumac or stinging nettles that the TD could provided relief from?

            If a drop zone was not specified before the round, what was the grounds for using the drop zone after the incident? After two lost discs from that location or two lost disc on the hole?

            I would have to say that if there is that much trouble on the hole that an individual could lose two disc, a drop zone should have been identified before the tournament began. I am sure the TD would have loved to have had one but it appears that this type of trouble was not expected. Did anyone in the group offer to spot on the hole or were there spotters on the hole as designated by the TD? Did anyone from the group offer to spot after the first lost disc?

            This is why we need to be more diligent with the rules. The Start Time for looking needs to be announced to the group and when it is up that also needs to be announced to the group. If the individual complains then a courtesy warning needs to be announced. If further banter continues strokes need to be assessed. I would put as much blame on the group as the TD in this case, for the lost discs or spotting of the lost discs. I don't believe the best move would be to let the groups play through after the TD has arrived on the scene, they were not waiting for a ruling but for a babysitter from the sounds of the tantrum. Player should have played from his original lie and continued to do so with provisional throws until a disc comes to rest in the field of play and can be located by the group spotting on the hole. The group should be placed along the line of play to help spot until a thrown disc can be located. The player should adjust their throw to play a more conservative throw, if spotting can not be effective due to the shule or distance from the fairway the throws are landing, to ensure a safe and locatable throw. If the player would have unloaded their bag trying to tin cup the shot that is their blame and they could then have been disqualified if they did not have a disc to play.


            ALSO: TD should make a note in their TD report to the PDGA about the situation; if anyone knows who the TD was that made the ruling and is reading this you should contact them and let them know or contact the State coordinator Mike Ruzica(Magilla on these forums) and have him contact the TD. If anyone was affected by this ruling and subsequent change of play on the hole please contact the TD directly and try to work it out, if that does not satisfy your request please contact Mike Ruzica the state coordinator and or the PDGA. Do not blow this up on the forums as it will never get handled here on the forums the way it should. It would be advisable to do this immediately, because it will be more difficult to handle once the final TD report is submitted
            Last edited by Flash; August 10th, 2009, 12:18 PM.
            PDGA #25296
            Stumptown #34

            Comment


            • #7
              Did the outcome of the incident affect the final payout and would 2-3 strokes have affected it more? I believe so.What was the location of the lost disc like, was it a ravine or thick blackberry bushes? Was there any poison oak, sumac or stinging nettles that the TD could provided relief from? Dense forest with nettles and blackberry bushes.

              If a drop zone was not specified before the round, what was the grounds for using the drop zone after the incident? After two lost discs from that location or two lost disc on the hole? Both discs were lost from that location.

              Did anyone in the group offer to spot on the hole or were there spotters on the hole as designated by the TD? Did anyone from the group offer to spot after the first lost disc? There were two spotters and myself on the first throw, for a total of three. Didn't find the disc. There were two CARDS of spotters for the second throw...didn't find the disc. The route chosen was ill-advised at best.

              The Start Time for looking needs to be announced to the group and when it is up that also needs to be announced to the group. This was done.


              ALSO: TD should make a note in their TD report to the PDGA about the situation; if anyone knows who the TD was that made the ruling and is reading this you should contact them and let them know or contact the State coordinator Mike Ruzica(Magilla on these forums) and have him contact the TD. If anyone was affected by this ruling and subsequent change of play on the hole please contact the TD directly and try to work it out, if that does not satisfy your request please contact Mike Ruzica the state coordinator and or the PDGA. Do not blow this up on the forums as it will never get handled here on the forums the way it should. It would be advisable to do this immediately, because it will be more difficult to handle once the final TD report is submitted

              The intent of the post was to figure out how the hole should have been scored, not to create more issues. That information would be helpful for future reference. For example: I read a thread on this forum awhile ago about the 3 minute rule and when/how that should be called, etc. I applied that information in this situation based on what I learned from that discussion.
              Golf appeals to the idiot in us and the child. Just how childlike golf players become is proven by their frequent inability to count past five. - John Updike

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by all2common View Post

                The route chosen was ill-advised at best.

                That perhaps may be the most important lesson to be gleaned from all of this.
                Untwist thine undergarments, 'tis but a Frisbee.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Flash View Post
                  DidALSO: TD should make a note in their TD report to the PDGA about the situation; if anyone knows who the TD was that made the ruling and is reading this you should contact them and let them know or contact the State coordinator Mike Ruzica(Magilla on these forums) and have him contact the TD. If anyone was affected by this ruling and subsequent change of play on the hole please contact the TD directly and try to work it out, if that does not satisfy your request please contact Mike Ruzica the state coordinator and or the PDGA. Do not blow this up on the forums as it will never get handled here on the forums the way it should. It would be advisable to do this immediately, because it will be more difficult to handle once the final TD report is submitted


                  Hey..Thats "RuzicKa"....

                  But otherwise.....YEA...What he said....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    that's too bad for the player and the people waiting, groups can not play through unless they were waiting for a ruling, what drop zone, unless it was reconized before the round i don't see how it was used, t.d.'s do have leeways on rules but i don't see it on this one, people waiting needed to wait longer so the hole could be played properly, waiting should be acceptable by now it happens almost every big tourmnament round, esecially with ghost groups

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think a more pressing question would be... were they discraft or innova?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Dude should have been stroked several times and then booted.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Sounds like the guy could've used a trip through a 4-card spanking machine...let the punishment fit the crime...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Started reading, then discovered not a hypothetical.

                            Sounds unfortunate for everyone involved, though mostly the player throwing the tantrum.

                            As far as rules, the toughest to decide is the play through, though that comes down to a TD decision. And it sounds like the TD was on the spot. It was only the On-the-spot "drop zone" that seems in error. Not in the rules, shouldn't have been used. Worse, it seems to have affected the outcome.

                            HOWEVER, ALL the pressure in the scenario lies on the TD. A myriad of rule interpretations to make on the spot, a player throwing a "tantrum," groups backing up, his/her peers looking on and whatever other tourney thoughts are banging around in the TD's head. Not really an ideal situation for the TD.

                            A note to the PDGA is probably in order as Flash recommended.

                            The best thing to come out of the situation is, hopefully, the player who threw the public "tantrum" learns a valuable lesson.

                            (The only place one should throw a tantrum is on this forum.)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              the play through is easy, you can only play through if someone in the group has called for an official and are out of the way waiting for an official and have signaled to the next group to play through, the drop zone was real unfortunate:, if the t.d. did not set the group aside to hear what was up and allow the back up to play through, that also would have been unfortunate

                              Comment

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