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  • #16
    My Ruling

    I arrived at the search area for the first lost disc on 13 walking in from 14. The two spotters on the hole had it in the area of the upper walkout to 14 which is basically pin high and 40 to 50 feet left. I asked if the clock had been started. Yes it had been and it was up. I told the player his disc was lost and he had to throw from the previous lie. I knew he was mad but didnít realize the extent of a tantrum as he proceeded back to the previous lie. I stayed on lower walkout to 14 with others to help spot the next throw. Part of the issue he said was, he had asked for another spotter from his group to help the other two on hole, but it didnít happen. I want to mention that we did not have a spotter available for this hole. One of the FW1 women who was stung earlier in the round and had to withdraw was there with a friend spotting when this happened.
    The second throw was absolutely launched heading over 14ís fairway and possibly out of the park. I think we all (10 at least) collectively said oh sh!t and then, well weíve got three minutes. It was about this time I was told the back up was four groups. We didnít find the second throw and I instructed the player to go back to his previous lie and throw again. Before he got to make the throw I called him off as I felt we had to clear the hole and get things moving. I went to the previous version of the lost disc rule but wasnít going to use his second throw as that had just as great a chance of prolonging the ordeal. I had confidence in the ladies spotting of his original throw that was lost in the area of the upper walk out. The shule is some of the thickest on the course here and I picked a spot on the walkout where the ladies last saw the disc. Though you could see part of the basket from the spot I picked, the shot had a very small chance of being made.
    Iíll stand by the decision I made in a tough situation and I will put it in the TD report. I should have taken the other three players in the group aside and explained how I made the decision, sorry about that.
    The player cashed in the lower half and a couple of strokes wouldíve changed payout by $5. A couple of players will receive a few less ratings points.

    Thanks
    David

    Comment


    • #17
      You did good Dave! In my opinion, and I'll argue it to anyone, is that the TD has the final say, even if at his/her discretion the rules are circumvented to allow the tournament to continue to run smoothly. This situation was handled as well as it could have been given the circumstances.

      Bob

      Comment


      • #18
        The player cashed in the lower half and a couple of strokes would’ve changed payout by $5. A couple of players will receive a few less ratings points.
        Not sure what his round rating was for this round. But if it was more than 60 points below his rating, then he will not be included as a propagator for that official round rating calculation and his round will not have affected the rating of anyone else.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Dave Pittman View Post
          I arrived at the search area for the first lost disc on 13 walking in from 14. The two spotters on the hole had it in the area of the upper walkout to 14 which is basically pin high and 40 to 50 feet left. I asked if the clock had been started. Yes it had been and it was up. I told the player his disc was lost and he had to throw from the previous lie. I knew he was mad but didnít realize the extent of a tantrum as he proceeded back to the previous lie. I stayed on lower walkout to 14 with others to help spot the next throw. Part of the issue he said was, he had asked for another spotter from his group to help the other two on hole, but it didnít happen. I want to mention that we did not have a spotter available for this hole. One of the FW1 women who was stung earlier in the round and had to withdraw was there with a friend spotting when this happened.
          The second throw was absolutely launched heading over 14ís fairway and possibly out of the park. I think we all (10 at least) collectively said oh sh!t and then, well weíve got three minutes. It was about this time I was told the back up was four groups. We didnít find the second throw and I instructed the player to go back to his previous lie and throw again. Before he got to make the throw I called him off as I felt we had to clear the hole and get things moving. I went to the previous version of the lost disc rule but wasnít going to use his second throw as that had just as great a chance of prolonging the ordeal. I had confidence in the ladies spotting of his original throw that was lost in the area of the upper walk out. The shule is some of the thickest on the course here and I picked a spot on the walkout where the ladies last saw the disc. Though you could see part of the basket from the spot I picked, the shot had a very small chance of being made.
          Iíll stand by the decision I made in a tough situation and I will put it in the TD report. I should have taken the other three players in the group aside and explained how I made the decision, sorry about that.
          The player cashed in the lower half and a couple of strokes wouldíve changed payout by $5. A couple of players will receive a few less ratings points.

          Thanks
          David
          Sounds like you handled it very well to me Dave! Thanks for all the hard work this past weekend.

          Comment


          • #20
            Dave the only problem and is very minor is the speed of play for the course. ie letting other groups through. It does not matter how many groups are waiting or how long they waited, As a courtesy to all who signed up each of us has the responsibility to maintain our cool, either witnessing or waiting. I always a say "I did not write the rules. I just get to enforce them as best I can. This is not an exact science but it seems to happen more often Jordy at RCO come to mind.
            rewindb.com

            Comment


            • #21
              after reading Daves point of view, i can see where he felt like he needed to do something, and saying he could of handled a little different is manning up, thanks Dave for all your hard work, especially on the course grounds, the player should have realized what was up and did the right thing anyway, the other players in the group could have contested the call, sounds like they didn't waste time, sounds like it just took along time, and even if the right call would have been made the score still might have been the same after all, back ups are a part of big tournaments especially with ghost groups, last year at dexter on hole six we had at least half hour wait every round, it happens sometimes,

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by "Over the Hill" Bob View Post
                In my opinion, and I'll argue it to anyone, is that the TD has the final say, even if at his/her discretion the rules are circumvented to allow the tournament to continue to run smoothly.
                804.01.D. No rules may be stipulated which conflict with the PDGA Rules of Play, unless approved by the Tour Manager of the PDGA.

                It sounds as if the best way to get things moving again would have been to DQ the player.

                804.05.A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of
                disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
                (1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs
                in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present.

                Only those there can say whether or not the outburst warrented a suspension, but someone who was there described the tantrum as "epic".

                Comment


                • #23
                  "It sounds as if the best way to get things moving again would have been to DQ the player.

                  804.05.A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of
                  disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
                  (1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs
                  in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present.

                  Only those there can say whether or not the outburst warrented a suspension, but someone who was there described the tantrum as "epic"."



                  I agree.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by all2common View Post
                    Did the outcome of the incident affect the final payout and would 2-3 strokes have affected it more? I believe so.What was the location of the lost disc like, was it a ravine or thick blackberry bushes? Was there any poison oak, sumac or stinging nettles that the TD could provided relief from? Dense forest with nettles and blackberry bushes.

                    If a drop zone was not specified before the round, what was the grounds for using the drop zone after the incident? After two lost discs from that location or two lost disc on the hole? Both discs were lost from that location.

                    Did anyone in the group offer to spot on the hole or were there spotters on the hole as designated by the TD? Did anyone from the group offer to spot after the first lost disc? There were two spotters and myself on the first throw, for a total of three. Didn't find the disc. There were two CARDS of spotters for the second throw...didn't find the disc. The route chosen was ill-advised at best.

                    The Start Time for looking needs to be announced to the group and when it is up that also needs to be announced to the group. This was done.


                    ALSO: TD should make a note in their TD report to the PDGA about the situation; if anyone knows who the TD was that made the ruling and is reading this you should contact them and let them know or contact the State coordinator Mike Ruzica(Magilla on these forums) and have him contact the TD. If anyone was affected by this ruling and subsequent change of play on the hole please contact the TD directly and try to work it out, if that does not satisfy your request please contact Mike Ruzica the state coordinator and or the PDGA. Do not blow this up on the forums as it will never get handled here on the forums the way it should. It would be advisable to do this immediately, because it will be more difficult to handle once the final TD report is submitted

                    The intent of the post was to figure out how the hole should have been scored, not to create more issues. That information would be helpful for future reference. For example: I read a thread on this forum awhile ago about the 3 minute rule and when/how that should be called, etc. I applied that information in this situation based on what I learned from that discussion.
                    all2common,

                    Sorry if the post sounded a little harsh. It sounds like you guys did everything that you could but just had a difficult group mate. I was trying to get a feel for how the situation went down and now that Dave has shared his judgment I think everyone can relate to his position.

                    I believe this is the most difficult part of working with the rules. Everyone has a different threshold for outbursts and it can become difficult to start handing out courtesy violation strokes especially if there is indifference in the group. I know it sucks to enforce the rules all of a sudden you can go from the most subdued individual to a complete rule nazi to the guy/gal being given a penalty stroke. It can affect your round and the players in a negative light when it is only supposed to correct a violation.

                    It sucks that the guy lost a couple of discs but it happens and if you he didn't want to keep digging a deeper hole he should have thrown a safer shot whether it gets to the basket or not. I sounds to me like he was offered a sweet deal on the drop spot based on his lost disc. My only concern is what if someone else during the weekend had a similar situation and ended up taking more strokes because they played it out correctly.
                    PDGA #25296
                    Stumptown #34

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Flash View Post
                      My only concern is what if someone else during the weekend had a similar situation and ended up taking more strokes because they played it out correctly.
                      I agree. That is a concern of mine as well.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Also keep in mind that provisionals can be played (i.e. after the 2nd throw was launched into the shule w. 10 people watching). That can help speed of play quite a bit.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Greg_R View Post
                          Also keep in mind that provisionals can be played (i.e. after the 2nd throw was launched into the shule w. 10 people watching). That can help speed of play quite a bit.
                          Good idea. In fact, a provisional probably should have been thrown after the first throw. But it sounds as if the player was in serious denial about his disc being lost.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Greg_R View Post
                            Also keep in mind that provisionals can be played (i.e. after the 2nd throw was launched into the shule w. 10 people watching). That can help speed of play quite a bit.
                            From the sound of the person in this thread, the provisional would have been another hero shot, launched in search of the other two...
                            The only thing miraculous about ICP is the fact that their children look like them...

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              good point greg

                              Comment

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