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  • #16
    I had a similar situation in Leavonworth @ Flippen Z. Final round on Sunday, 5 holes to go, Im tied for the lead. The Spotter from our group (who I'm tied with) misplaced my drive. After searching for way more than 3 min. I walked back to the tee box without saying anything out loud( I was screaming at that f-in spotter in my head though!). As I was teeing off (disc had left my hand, hadn't landed yet) my first drive is found. I played out my second drive with 2 penalty stroke's added to take a 6p and lose the tourney by 2 strokes.


    The bottom line is, once a disc is declared lost, it is lost, and can't be played. The grey area is what is "declairing", in my case, it was making the turn and walking back to the pad. I know that a 3 min timer is supposed to be used, but never once in all the tourney's i've played has anyone ever used a time piece. It has always been a group consensus and way longer than 3 min.(actual time usually has something to do with the group behind mine and their proximity to us).

    As far as provisionals go, It's hard to determin when to throw one, It seems that I've lost more disc's that should have been "in the middle of the fairway", and walk right up to pastic that is 3' deep in the "stuff".

    Unless people start using stopwatches, this will always be a contraversial topic.
    A bad day on the golf course is better than a good day at work!

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    • #17
      Well I can't understand why the TD would then throw it back to the group. The TDs are getting the big bucks (jk) to make calls in this exact situation. To throw it back to the group seems un-TD-like; you're the TD, make the call.
      educate your thinking

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      • #18
        Until a rule book and time piece are required items during a sanctioned round we will always have these issues. It states several times in the rulebook about some specific time must elapse whether it be time to throw time to look or time to wait. I can't believe they are not required in the fact that to make a ruling you would need one or both in most cases.

        Realistically, anyone can challenge any time based rule if a time piece was not used to make the ruling but if people carried time pieces I think people would be more disappointed because they would be shocked on how short 30 seconds is or how short 3 minutes is. There would probably be more discs declared lost and then found. Because of this I think common sense can set in and when the group has looked for 10 minutes without a time piece and declares the disc lost the individual is more willing to accept the group decision.

        People may not know that it has been exactly 3 minutes but most people have the presence of mind to know that it clearly has been more than three minutes!
        PDGA #25296
        Stumptown #34

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        • #19
          Originally posted by olydiscgolf View Post
          The bottom line is, once a disc is declared lost, it is lost, and can't be played. The grey area is what is "declairing", in my case, it was making the turn and walking back to the pad.
          I agree with this. In the case at Trojan, I don't think the player actually declared the disc was lost, but he never declared he was throwing a provisional, either. IMO, the act of going back to the previous lie and throwing (without declaring it a provisional throw) is the same as declaring your disc being lost.

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          • #20
            6p, you also have the option to step aside let other groups pass untill an official can be located to make a ruling, did I read the t.d. was involved and did not make a ruling, what official made the ruling, as far as t.d.'s making the big bucks, I've ran 2 pdga events this year and the club has spent over 500.00 on them and the t.d. accepts no money for his efforts, my wife really sponsers our tournaments with her donations to buy everything we need,
            Last edited by SMOKIN JOE; July 14th, 2009, 09:57 AM.

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            • #21
              8ppp. The player never holed out and misplayed the course (801.04D).
              1 Tee shot
              2 Second throw
              3 Lost penalty
              4 Third throw
              5 Practice throw from where disc was found
              6 Practice throw (putt)
              7-8 Two throw penalty for not holing out

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Chuck Kennedy View Post
                8ppp. The player never holed out and misplayed the course (801.04D).
                1 Tee shot
                2 Second throw
                3 Lost penalty
                4 Third throw
                5 Practice throw from where disc was found
                6 Practice throw (putt)
                7-8 Two throw penalty for not holing out
                The player did in fact hole out. After holing out from the lost disc, he holed out from his other (correct) lie as well (provisional). The two shots he took to hole out should not count because they were provisional. This results in:

                1. Tee shot
                2. Second throw
                3. Lost penalty
                4. Third throw
                5. Fourth throw
                6. Putt

                Does that sound right?

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                • #23
                  There was no provisional called before the alternate route was played.
                  1 Tee shot
                  2 Second throw
                  3 Lost penalty
                  4 Third throw
                  5 Putt out (might have been last toss?)
                  6 Practice throw from lost disc position
                  7 Practice throw putting out that shot

                  7p with no 2-throw misplay penalty

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Chuck Kennedy View Post
                    There was no provisional called before the alternate route was played.
                    1 Tee shot
                    2 Second throw
                    3 Lost penalty
                    4 Third throw
                    5 Putt out (might have been last toss?)
                    6 Practice throw from lost disc position
                    7 Practice throw putting out that shot

                    7p with no 2-throw misplay penalty
                    In that case we do end up with an 8p because after the third throw it took two more throws to hole out (and additional approach and a putt).

                    Wow.

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                    • #25
                      Another problem is when the disc is declared 'lost', the player is walking back to the previous lie and someone finds the disc. I've had numerous occasions where the player insists that they should play from the now 'found' disc (sometimes with a penalty, sometimes without). When reading comprehension fails I'll have them throw a provisional and let the TD sort it out (rather than getting into a heated discussion mid-round).

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Greg_R View Post
                        Another problem is when the disc is declared 'lost', the player is walking back to the previous lie and someone finds the disc. I've had numerous occasions where the player insists that they should play from the now 'found' disc (sometimes with a penalty, sometimes without). When reading comprehension fails I'll have them throw a provisional and let the TD sort it out (rather than getting into a heated discussion mid-round).

                        That's basically what happened here, only the player actually threw before the disc was found.

                        Here's the funny part: This disc was actually found by my caddy.
                        After the round I jokingly slapped him upside the head and said, "What the hell were you thinking!"

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                        • #27
                          There's no requirement that someone in the group have a watch or timer to be able to say at least 3 minutes is up on a search. If the group agrees it's been 3 minutes, that's good enough. If the player disagrees, their only proof is to provide a watch or timer, which of course they didn't carry.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Chuck Kennedy View Post
                            There's no requirement that someone in the group have a watch or timer to be able to say at least 3 minutes is up on a search. If the group agrees it's been 3 minutes, that's good enough. If the player disagrees, their only proof is to provide a watch or timer, which of course they didn't carry.
                            Really?

                            That seems to solidify the case. Because the group did reach concensus that 3 minutes had been reached, at which time the player walked back to his disc.

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                            • #29
                              Groups make rulings all the time, whether right or wrong, without actually having a rulebook in hand or make CTP calls without a tape.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Chuck Kennedy View Post
                                There's no requirement that someone in the group have a watch or timer to be able to say at least 3 minutes is up on a search. If the group agrees it's been 3 minutes, that's good enough. If the player disagrees, their only proof is to provide a watch or timer, which of course they didn't carry.
                                That sounds like an Ad Hoc argument to me!
                                ************
                                per the rules:
                                803.11 Lost Disc

                                A. A disc shall be declared lost if the player cannot locate it within three minutes after arriving at the spot where it was last seen by the group or an official. Two players or an official must note when the timing of three minutes begins. All players of the group must, upon request, assist in searching for
                                the disc for the full three minutes before the disc is declared lost. The disc is considered lost immediately upon the expiration of the three minute time limit
                                *************
                                I would argue that in order to note the start of the time, a time piece might be needed.

                                If a time piece is not available, best bet is to call out we are starting to look so that it is clear that everyone in the group is looking for a specific disc. Once it is obvious that 3 minutes has elapsed then call it and move on.

                                At the players meeting the day before, the TD did mention that if you throw your disc and it lands in the blackberry bushes on the right side of the fairway to throw a provisional and make sure it stays in the fairway before you leave the tee box. Was this statement made on Sunday as well?
                                PDGA #25296
                                Stumptown #34

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