Barsby's putt--falling or no? Page Title Module
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  • #31
    Originally posted by NWDiscer View Post
    So you are saying that in the circle i can throw a spike hyzer str8 up in the air then move forward over my mini????before my disc hits the basket or the ground

    That is incorrect sir.

    yes that is correct. if you have displayed full control and balance it doesnt matter if you disc is 2 feet in the air or 250 feet in the air. the only thing the rule book covers is that a player must display balance before progressing past your lie. it has nothing to do with your thrown disc and where it is.
    Team HOSER:dancing:
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    Team Meteor

    "Oh man, my burps are giving me whiplash"

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Sam View Post
      You = not understanding the rules.
      I disagree. I think that we have a disagreeement about what constitutes a full display of balance.

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      • #33
        Leaning on one foot, flailing with one's arms and turning it into a "let's grab the mini and look natural" is not a display of balance. Should have been called and seconded.
        ďI believe I can hit 18 greens, hit every fairway, you know ó Vision 54, which means you birdie every hole, thatís in the back of my mind. I want to putt better, chip better. That day when I hit 18 greens and one putt, Iíll know Iím a complete golfer. Will that ever happen? Iím not sure, but itís possible. The 54 vision is always in the back of my mind.Ē
        ~Annika SŲrenstam

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        • #34
          803.04
          C. Any throw from within 10 meters or less, as measured from the rear of the marker disc
          to the base of the hole, is considered a putt. A follow-through after a putt that causes the
          thrower to make any supporting point contact closer to the hole than the rear edge of the
          marker disc constitutes a falling putt and is considered a stance violation . The player must demonstrate full control of balance before advancing toward the hole.

          The only way that this would not have been a falling putt is if he picked up the mini from the back edge and didn't have any contact with any other part of the mini. The mini is actually between the mark and the basket and would constitute a "point closer to the hole than the rear edge" of said mini. Further, it definitely appears as if the picking up of the mini steadied him and made it so that he did not fall. This is a clear violation of the stance rule above and should have been called and seconded as a falling putt.
          ďI believe I can hit 18 greens, hit every fairway, you know ó Vision 54, which means you birdie every hole, thatís in the back of my mind. I want to putt better, chip better. That day when I hit 18 greens and one putt, Iíll know Iím a complete golfer. Will that ever happen? Iím not sure, but itís possible. The 54 vision is always in the back of my mind.Ē
          ~Annika SŲrenstam

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Sam View Post
            The only way that this would not have been a falling putt is if he picked up the mini from the back edge and didn't have any contact with any other part of the mini.
            OR if it is agreed that he showed a full control of balance.

            Leaning forward while standing on one leg with the other leg fully extended is an act of balance. Why do you think it is used in sobriety tests?

            OK... I will stipulate that it is close. Since there is no instant replay rule in the PDGA I will borrow the rule from the NFL: There must be conslusive video evidence to overturn the call (or non call). To me, it was inconclusive whether or not he was picking up the disc or using it to balance. If it's inconclusive, then the (non)call stands.

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            • #36
              There is conclusive evidence. If he touched anything but the very back edge of his mini before showing balance - and that is there on the tape - it is a falling putt.

              By the way... you do realize that he would have had to stand there for 10 seconds with his head tilted back and his arms outstretched for your sobriety test analogy to hold any water, right?
              ďI believe I can hit 18 greens, hit every fairway, you know ó Vision 54, which means you birdie every hole, thatís in the back of my mind. I want to putt better, chip better. That day when I hit 18 greens and one putt, Iíll know Iím a complete golfer. Will that ever happen? Iím not sure, but itís possible. The 54 vision is always in the back of my mind.Ē
              ~Annika SŲrenstam

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Sam View Post
                There is conclusive evidence. If he touched anything but the very back edge of his mini before showing balance - and that is there on the tape - it is a falling putt.

                By the way... you do realize that he would have had to stand there for 10 seconds with his head tilted back and his arms outstretched for your sobriety test analogy to hold any water, right?
                No, no, no..... Read this slowly. It doesn't matter if he touches the front or back of the mini because he shows balance (barely) through the act of leaning over.

                Standing with head back and arms stetched out is only one type of sobriety test. Another is to stand on one foot and lean over to pick up an object that is right in front of you. Trust me on this one.

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                • #38
                  The act of leaning over is NOT showing balance, Scott. Especially when flailing one's arms.

                  Why is this so hard to understand?
                  ďI believe I can hit 18 greens, hit every fairway, you know ó Vision 54, which means you birdie every hole, thatís in the back of my mind. I want to putt better, chip better. That day when I hit 18 greens and one putt, Iíll know Iím a complete golfer. Will that ever happen? Iím not sure, but itís possible. The 54 vision is always in the back of my mind.Ē
                  ~Annika SŲrenstam

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sam
                    There is conclusive evidence. If he touched anything but the very back edge of his mini before showing balance - and that is there on the tape - it is a falling putt.
                    If you have not yet displayed balance, touching the marker is a stance violation as you have just crossed the imaginary plane behind the the rear edge of the marker to touch it. They may have been what you meant by very back edge of the mini.


                    I myself believe Barsby didn't foot fault although it was close. In my eyes Barsby had full control of balance. The rule needs to be rewritten to take "control of balance" out of the definition as people aren't going to agree on what is controlled and what isn't. I kind of like the idea of just staying behind your marker until the disc has come to rest, or has rolled/flew outside the circle.
                    Current World Rank: 2857th
                    Lowest Rated Round: 777
                    Worst Tournament Finish: 2nd From DFL MA2 GNO 2008
                    Worst Drive: 10 Feet behind teepad
                    Shortest Putt Missed During a Tournament: < 1 foot (Not Kidding)
                    Best Fall: Hole 11 Trojan Park, before cement teepads
                    Dirtiest Ace: Hole 12 Horning's Canyon Course through the "V" tree.
                    Pairs of Shoes Ruined: 6

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by keys View Post
                      I kind of like the idea of just staying behind your marker until the disc has come to rest, or has rolled/flew outside the circle.
                      Not bad, but not perfect, either. If someone can windmill their arms in order to stay behind the marker until their putt is at rest in the basket, and then they fall over, it's not a very impressive putting display.

                      Besides, the whole point of the 3-second limit for calling a stance violation is so the outcome of the putt (at rest in the basket or on the ground) won't sway a competitor to call it or not, requiring a mandatory re-putt. 3 seconds is just enough time for your brain to recognize the violation and call it before including the information of whether or not the putt was made.

                      I think the rule is fine as it stands, except for the gray area of balance control. I'm sure the Rules Committee and CK have wracked their brains (which are surely more powerful than most of ours) about this dilemma and we'll see a modification in the next rules update.
                      The only thing miraculous about ICP is the fact that their children look like them...

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by ChUcK View Post
                        Not bad, but not perfect, either. If someone can windmill their arms in order to stay behind the marker until their putt is at rest in the basket, and then they fall over, it's not a very impressive putting display.
                        Yeah, good call, I didn't think about that one. I have definitely done some wind milling long after the putt had come to rest in the basket.
                        Current World Rank: 2857th
                        Lowest Rated Round: 777
                        Worst Tournament Finish: 2nd From DFL MA2 GNO 2008
                        Worst Drive: 10 Feet behind teepad
                        Shortest Putt Missed During a Tournament: < 1 foot (Not Kidding)
                        Best Fall: Hole 11 Trojan Park, before cement teepads
                        Dirtiest Ace: Hole 12 Horning's Canyon Course through the "V" tree.
                        Pairs of Shoes Ruined: 6

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                        • #42
                          The main reason for the rule wording as it is currently is to prevent jump putts inside 10m, not necessarily to prevent awkward unbalanced flailing. Considering that a player has 3 seconds in which to call a foot fault, I'm wondering if simply requiring that the person putting not place any supporting point in front of their lie for at least 3 (4?) seconds after release would be a sufficient rule tweak? No mention of balance required then.

                          In the Barsby example, that would likely be a foot fault under this proposed 3 second rule. After releasing the putt, the person could have their non-stance foot poised in the air for 3 seconds, even beyond the lie like the Karate Kid crane move, and then place it down. It might look theatrical but it still takes some control of balance to pull that off (even if the person subsequently falls on the ground).

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                          • #43
                            Who Effen cares, get over it already. Do you think he is losing sleep over this? Hell no, that tournament was over two weeks ago and he has probably made 1000 putts since then.

                            Personally, you should be talking about how nice it is to have a local disc golfer showcasing the NW on YouTube and how good a job he has done producing these videos for your viewing pleasure. Instead you want to ridicule one ridiculous putt and pull the rule book out and make this forum incredibly dull.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by E-ROC View Post
                              Who Effen cares, get over it already. Do you think he is losing sleep over this? Hell no, that tournament was over two weeks ago and he has probably made 1000 putts since then.

                              Personally, you should be talking about how nice it is to have a local disc golfer showcasing the NW on YouTube and how good a job he has done producing these videos for your viewing pleasure. Instead you want to ridicule one ridiculous putt and pull the rule book out and make this forum incredibly dull.
                              Dude, this moved past barsby's putt a long time ago and now is taken on a legitimate concern of how the rule is stated in the rules book and how it is enforced. making sure everybody is following the rules of the game is not incredibly dull, it needs to be done.
                              Team HOSER:dancing:
                              Team OLY:cheerleader:
                              Team Meteor

                              "Oh man, my burps are giving me whiplash"

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                              • #45
                                Rule sticklers=still boring. Done.

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