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  • Appropriate Divisions -vs- Eternal Sandbaggers

    Originally posted by mowens404 View Post
    He has every right to play AM. check the rating.
    Yeah, and I have every right to shoot and kill an unarmed 12-year old if I feel he is threatening me.

    Just because you have the "right" to do something does not make it the "right" thing to do.

    Please refer to: http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/...GridTable3.pdf

    How can it be appropriate for a 950+rated player to play in the LOWEST skill division there is for 40+year olds?

    How can it be appropriate for a 950+rated Am to play in division where Pros above 935 are not allowed to play? How does that make sense? Ratings are ratings, and skill is skill, regardless of division.

    Why did the PDGA do away with MM2? If 950+rated players are going to be playing in MM1, then where do us 40+year olds rated in the 800s play? if you say MA2, I ask, then what's the point of age-protection?

    There are only 2 age-protected divisions for 40+year old men, MM1 and MP1. Do you really feel that 950+rated men should play in the LOWER of those 2 skill divisions?

    You said: "check the rating." I say: what does that matter? No one is stopping ANYONE from bagging MM1, except "pros" over 935, and even they can petition to drop down and bag MM1. You statement of "check the rating" makes no sense, when there ARE no rating limits on MM1, a serious mistake by the PDGA in my opinion, rendering the division almost useless, except for baggers to take the cash of lower-skilled players.

    It's really a question of honor. Is there more honor in coasting to an easy win, or in taking your lumps? And once there is more than one bagger, they cry "Look, I didn't win by very many strokes." Well, yeah, you barely beat another bagger. You BOTH should have been in another division.

    Want to continue this conversation? I do! But it's not relevant to this thread. So we can continue it elsewhere.

    I am not about to let this go, until someone can convince me otherwise, or until the PDGA starts enforcing rating protection on MM1 the way they do in other Am divisions.

    And when will TDs finally start holding events with ratings-based divisions? (NOT a slight on the BSF!)
    Last edited by TreeLove; April 5th, 2012, 11:59 AM.
    Ratings-based divisions: disc golf's inevitable future.
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  • #2
    Gawain,

    You made some very good points, so I did split this off into its own discussing worthy thread.

    I hope you don't mind.

    Jeeff
    "You won't like me when I am angry, because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources". - The Credible Hulk

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    • #3
      This is the whole reason I stopped almost 4 years ago ... Not because I don't like losing .. No because I don't like bagers
      Last edited by George A.; April 5th, 2012, 02:43 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        I know this isn't about me as I am not a 950+ rated player. In the immortal words of Doug the Bum, "I don't think I should move up. Perhaps you should move down!"
        ďI believe I can hit 18 greens, hit every fairway, you know ó Vision 54, which means you birdie every hole, thatís in the back of my mind. I want to putt better, chip better. That day when I hit 18 greens and one putt, Iíll know Iím a complete golfer. Will that ever happen? Iím not sure, but itís possible. The 54 vision is always in the back of my mind.Ē
        ~Annika SŲrenstam

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by George A. View Post
          This is the whole reason I stopped almos 4 years ago ... Not because I don't like loseing .. No because I don't like bagers


          Right.
          ďI believe I can hit 18 greens, hit every fairway, you know ó Vision 54, which means you birdie every hole, thatís in the back of my mind. I want to putt better, chip better. That day when I hit 18 greens and one putt, Iíll know Iím a complete golfer. Will that ever happen? Iím not sure, but itís possible. The 54 vision is always in the back of my mind.Ē
          ~Annika SŲrenstam

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by TreeLove View Post
            Yeah, and I have every right to shoot and kill an unarmed 12-year old if I feel he is threatening me.

            Just because you have the "right" to do something does not make it the "right" thing to do.

            Please refer to: http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/...GridTable3.pdf

            How can it be appropriate for a 950+rated player to play in the LOWEST skill division there is for 40+year olds?

            How can it be appropriate for a 950+rated Am to play in division where Pros above 935 are not allowed to play? How does that make sense? Ratings are ratings, and skill is skill, regardless of division.

            Why did the PDGA do away with MM2? If 950+rated players are going to be playing in MM1, then where do us 40+year olds rated in the 800s play? if you say MA2, I ask, then what's the point of age-protection?

            There are only 2 age-protected divisions for 40+year old men, MM1 and MP1. Do you really feel that 950+rated men should play in the LOWER of those 2 skill divisions?

            You said: "check the rating." I say: what does that matter? No one is stopping ANYONE from bagging MM1, except "pros" over 935, and even they can petition to drop down and bag MM1. You statement of "check the rating" makes no sense, when there ARE no rating limits on MM1, a serious mistake by the PDGA in my opinion, rendering the division almost useless, except for baggers to take the cash of lower-skilled players.

            It's really a question of honor. Is there more honor in coasting to an easy win, or in taking your lumps? And once there is more than one bagger, they cry "Look, I didn't win by very many strokes." Well, yeah, you barely beat another bagger. You BOTH should have been in another division.

            Want to continue this conversation? I do! But it's not relevant to this thread. So we can continue it elsewhere.

            I am not about to let this go, until someone can convince me otherwise, or until the PDGA starts enforcing rating protection on MM1 the way they do in other Am divisions.

            And when will TDs finally start holding events with ratings-based divisions? (NOT a slight on the BSF!)
            Ok, here's my 2 cents.

            A lot you're saying here makes sense, but I also think you're being a wee bit stubborn as well. Age-based divisions were created to ensure players continue to have a chance to play in a where they are competitive as they get older. Well... you still have a division to play in where you can be very competitive and that is MA2. The suggested range for that division is 900-935 and while your current rating of 899 is slightly below that threshold, you and I both know you plenty capable of being competitive in that division.

            As you said yourself "If 950+rated players are going to be playing in MM1, then where do us 40+year olds rated in the 800s play? if you say MA2, I ask, then what's the point of age-protection?"

            My answer is: Options. They are there to give people options. In many cases that option is perfect, in other cases (like yours) that option is not quite perfect.

            You also stated "There are only 2 age-protected divisions for 40+year old men, MM1 and MP1. Do you really feel that 950+rated men should play in the LOWER of those 2 skill divisions?"

            First off, it has to be stated up front that no one can EVER be forced to play Pro. This is a decision people need to make for themselves, and there are any number of reasons (good and bad) why some people choose to stay amateur for life. While I don't necessarily agree with it, I do understand some people have very good reasons for not "going pro". With all of that said, that means a upper level cap in MM1 is not possible... just like it is not in MA1.

            This is where, ultimately, you need to make a decision. Do you want to play in MA2 where you have no age-protection, but are still very competitive, or do you want to play MM1 where you're protected from the youngsters, but not some more skilled players your age?

            A lot of people, myself included, give Sam Gibson a lot of crap for not moving up, but, in all honesty, he would be moving from a division where he often does quite well, to one where he would have play very well to be in the hunt. I know this because if I don't play my best, I lose. And I lose a LOT

            Obviously, he wants to do well, as do we all, so that means he would need some other bit of motivation for him to make the jump. The one thing I keep pointing out to Sam is that he NEEDS tougher competition to inspire or motivate him, because he could very well be stagnating in MM1. However, that is also his choice, and the only person who can make that change is Sam himself.

            It looks to me like you want even more protection in an already protected division, and to me that means the appropriate division for you at this point in time is MA2.

            As for rating-based tourneys... I also agree these could be a TON of fun. I'd love to see someone step up to the plate and run one. I'd do it myself if I didn't have enough work already.

            Jeff

            PS: Gawain, please don't take any part of this as slight against you because it most definitely is not. I know where you're coming from and I can relate. I just feel there are answers there for you... they just might not be exactly as you the ones you'd prefer.

            PPS: This thread has also made me see the value in retaining the MA2 division. At the very least in tourneys below A-Tiers.
            Last edited by Bullseye; April 5th, 2012, 01:26 PM. Reason: Added the PSS
            "You won't like me when I am angry, because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources". - The Credible Hulk

            Comment


            • #7
              Four divisions -
              1. Men that play for money
              2. Men that don't play for money
              3. Women that play for money
              4. Women that don't play for money

              Who cares if you 'won' or not? Does it matter for your enjoyment of playing in a tournament? If so, you should probably just bag in a super low division!

              For nearly all of my recent tournaments, I've had one division (no payout/low entry) - focus on enjoyment of the game rather than what prizes you won by playing...
              'Weekend 4 Women':
              Saturday, June 30th - Sudoku Showdown II - FREE PDGA XC Tier
              Sunday, July 1st - Seattle SuperClassic - FREE PDGA XC Tier

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              • #8
                You could even combine divisions 2 & 4 to 'simplify' things
                'Weekend 4 Women':
                Saturday, June 30th - Sudoku Showdown II - FREE PDGA XC Tier
                Sunday, July 1st - Seattle SuperClassic - FREE PDGA XC Tier

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'm curious: Is the complaint about sandbaggers more that they "steal" the money (well...prizes actually), or is it more about players being "appropriately" placed in divisions so that there is a "fair" shot to be crowned X division BSF champ (or other prestigious title).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    im a 961 player. and have been lower, but that doesnt stop me from playing MPO. i want to play with the best players possible, and despite my rating i know what i am capable of. my first option for the BSF is obviously MPO for me having said that; however, im in a pickle. My rating isnt high enough to sign up for open so i must wait til the 16th. i fear that the MPO will fill before i get the chance to sign up, so i put in for the lottery. I just wanna play this tourney, as i have not been able to yet. I didnt make the lotto last year. My rating allows for me to play advanced, for now. So the lottery is my backup plan. im playing in the GNO, Aloha Suishi, RCO, FSO... so far. so i would hope that my rating goes up through all of these great tournies, although if my rating raised above 970 i wouldnt be able to play (if i didnt get the MPO slot.) So i hope my rating goes up, even if i cant play the BSF. theres always next year

                    what was i talking about... oh yeah, sam! Sam, you play whatever div you think is best for you man. no hate. whats important is that you are there, hanging out and having fun!
                    Last edited by XandorF; April 5th, 2012, 02:31 PM. Reason: cut and paste. w/e

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by XandorF View Post
                      im a 961 player. and have been lower, but that doesnt stop me from playing MPO. i want to play with the best players possible, and despite my rating i know what i am capable of. my first option for the BSF is obviously MPO for me having said that; however, im in a pickle. My rating isnt high enough to sign up for open so i must wait til the 16th. i fear that the MPO will fill before i get the chance to sign up, so i put in for the lottery. I just wanna play this tourney, as i have not been able to yet. I didnt make the lotto last year. My rating allows for me to play advanced, for now. So the lottery is my backup plan. im playing in the GNO, Aloha Suishi, RCO, FSO... so far. so i would hope that my rating goes up through all of these great tournies, although if my rating raised above 970 i wouldnt be able to play (if i didnt get the MPO slot.) So i hope my rating goes up, even if i cant play the BSF. theres always next year

                      what was i talking about... oh yeah, sam! Sam, you play whatever div you think is best for you man. no hate. whats important is that you are there, hanging out and having fun!
                      There is no upper limit for MA1. Go as high as you want. As long as you don't register as a Pro or accept cash, you're good to play in MA1. You may take some shit for it, but probably not from Sam.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think that "the right thing" is a subjective term and could mean anything. If a 40+ player is rated 945, should he play pro? He would be 50ish points below the top of the division in pro, but 50ish points ahead of you if he plays AM. Who are you to say that he "should" move up because "it's the right thing to do"?

                        You told me for the chick flick doubles that me and Erin should have moved up to working it because we are accomplished experienced golfers, you are a very accomplished and experienced golfer yourself Gawain, why aren't you playing pro? because your rating is low? well mine is low as well(924). As for moving up, I have moved up and have only played 1 tournament in my career in intermediate, I won and I moved up. haven't even finished better than 23rd in a tournament in adv.

                        I think that for a lot of people who for them it is obvious which division they should play have a hard time dealing with people who are in that bubble between playing in their division. If it were based off of ratings for the fling, you and Sam would be in the same division.
                        What about people who don't play well in tournaments but are killer casual golfers. Where should they be placed? I am really confident and play well casually, but almost always play horribly in tournaments. So should I just suck it up and continue to get last place in my division? or should I play with the people that are throwing similar scores to mine and have a chance?

                        And than we start the infinite loop again of... you should "do the right thing" right for who? me, or you?
                        Fear of any kind is the number one enemy of all golfers regardless of ball-striking and shot-making capabilities.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Scott View Post
                          There is no upper limit for MA1. Go as high as you want. As long as you don't register as a Pro or accept cash, you're good to play in MA1. You may take some shit for it, but probably not from Sam.
                          As long as you don't register as a Pro or
                          i am registered as a pro; however, i have talked with multiple people, including Dave Feldberg (mr. prez), and i have been told that you can continue to play MA1 as long as you are not a Touring Pro. so not a touring pro and have not accepted cash... but please correct me if im wrong.

                          accept cash too late... ($20 at slosh lol )
                          im sure i could petition to get that removed. regardless, if i dont take cash, which i definitely plan on doing, at the GNO or the Aloha i will punch myself in the face.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mowens404 View Post
                            You told me for the chick flick doubles that me and Erin should have moved up to working it because we are accomplished experienced golfers, you are a very accomplished and experienced golfer yourself Gawain, why aren't you playing pro? because your rating is low? well mine is low as well(924). As for moving up, I have moved up and have only played 1 tournament in my career in intermediate, I won and I moved up. haven't even finished better than 23rd in a tournament in adv.
                            Around here, there is an even lower tolerence of perceived bagging in non-pdga events.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Older amateurs

                              I'm starting to see a need for an amateur master/grandmaster division.
                              There are a lot of fellers who don't start playing this game until they are late 40 early 50, and chances are they'll never play pro with some destined to be Am's for life. Some of us just keep getting older, fatter, slower....sigh.
                              I'm sure this sounds weird coming from one who doesn't support the advanced master division, but I feel advanced masters can compete in either advanced or pro master.
                              I think it would be great for the "grassroots" plan of the PDGA (wherever that ended up ) to honor the Am Master/MM2, again. We may possibly have an Amateur Masters in our SOWS gigs next season.
                              I think the baggers should form their own divisions.
                              He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
                              - Anonymous

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