Appropriate Divisions -vs- Eternal Sandbaggers Page Title Module
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  • #61
    Originally posted by Scott View Post
    I loved your entire post and was in complete agreement until I got to this paragraph. I think this viewpoint assumes that people who are sandbagging do so strictly for monetary gain. I don't think that's the case. It seems more likely that a tender ego may be the culprit.
    Well, he didn't say it was their motivation, or sole motivation, he just said there would be no financial reward for doing so. But I get your point too.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Sausage Fingers View Post
      That is definitely a way to encourage people to move up, but I think that the same thing can be accomplished by limiting the size of the player pools. You know, actually offer all of the AM divisions at your event and make people play in the division for which their rating qualifies them to play. Instead of reserving 72 spots all for AM1 and have no other AM division that isn't protected by age or gender, actually offer the divisions as they are set out in the competition manual.
      If your rating isn't 935+ then you do not get to play in MA1.
      If your rating isn't 900-934 then you do not get to play in MA2.
      If your rating isn't 850-899 then you do not get to play in MA3.
      If every division was offered then the division sizes would have to be smaller. That in turn would lower the amount of swag that any one AM player will walk away with, even the vaunted MA1 winner. In fact I think that you will find that MA1 will not even be the largest AM field if you do not allow players in with ratings below 935.

      I like this idea.

      A lot.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Sausage Fingers View Post
        That is definitely a way to encourage people to move up, but I think that the same thing can be accomplished by limiting the size of the player pools. You know, actually offer all of the AM divisions at your event and make people play in the division for which their rating qualifies them to play. Instead of reserving 72 spots all for AM1 and have no other AM division that isn't protected by age or gender, actually offer the divisions as they are set out in the competition manual.
        If your rating isn't 935+ then you do not get to play in MA1.
        If your rating isn't 900-934 then you do not get to play in MA2.
        If your rating isn't 850-899 then you do not get to play in MA3.
        If every division was offered then the division sizes would have to be smaller. That in turn would lower the amount of swag that any one AM player will walk away with, even the vaunted MA1 winner. In fact I think that you will find that MA1 will not even be the largest AM field if you do not allow players in with ratings below 935.



        I do NOT like this idea. My rating is 924, I would not be OK with being forced into Intermediate. I think this is is opposite of what you want to do. If your rating is above 935 than you can't play MA2, not if you are under you can't play MA1. Why stop players from moving up? I thought the problem was players staying down.
        Fear of any kind is the number one enemy of all golfers regardless of ball-striking and shot-making capabilities.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by mowens404 View Post
          I do NOT like this idea. My rating is 924, I would not be OK with being forced into Intermediate. I think this is is opposite of what you want to do. If your rating is above 935 than you can't play MA2, not if you are under you can't play MA1. Why stop players from moving up? I thought the problem was players staying down.
          Don't you just hate these new guys getting all logical and stuff.
          "You won't like me when I am angry, because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources". - The Credible Hulk

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          • #65
            I wonder how many stock discs would be sold (~msrp) at an event that didn't offer AM payout?

            Sometimes, I imagine the club/entity might also benefit from a large AM field w/ payout that conforms to the 2012 tour standards?

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by mowens404 View Post
              I do NOT like this idea. My rating is 924, I would not be OK with being forced into Intermediate. I think this is is opposite of what you want to do. If your rating is above 935 than you can't play MA2, not if you are under you can't play MA1. Why stop players from moving up? I thought the problem was players staying down.
              The idea is that it would keep divisions competetive, giving everyone a fair chance.


              Don't worry. From what I've heard, you won't be <935 for long anyway.

              Comment


              • #67
                LOL at the financial gain and ego= sandbagging theories> I have only known 1 disc golfer with this mentality (out of hundreds). How about someone just enjoying to play in a certain division more? If everyone in the 950+ range moved up to pro, then the MA1 division would be intended for 935-950 rated players only? Should a player feel obligated to move up to pro because someone else thinks they should? Sorry, but I don't play tournaments to make you happy...

                Why is it more fair for a 940-960 rated player to compete versus 980-1000 rated players than it is for a 910-930 rated player to compete against 940-960ish players? I'd contend that more 930 rated players cash in advanced than 960 rated players cash in pro, on average. It seems the same players are winning pro much more often than the top rated AM1 players win their division> more parity IMO.
                The contention that amateurs should not play for 'prizes' is not a very sound argument IMO. Flatter payouts seem to be a good way to make things more 'fair' so that nobody continues to get rich off of Scott's buyins, or should we all just play for fun and get participation ribbons?

                Also, I totally disagree with the notion that nobody has ever won a tournament unless they were in the pro division. Talk about ego.
                Last edited by Toby Puttzinski; April 12th, 2012, 03:40 PM.
                Don't just walk past that candy wrapper on the fairway-- I know you saw it!

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by mowens404 View Post

                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Sausage Fingers

                  If your rating isn't 935+ then you do not get to play in MA1.
                  If your rating isn't 900-934 then you do not get to play in MA2.
                  If your rating isn't 850-899 then you do not get to play in MA3.

                  -----


                  I do NOT like this idea. My rating is 924, I would not be OK with being forced into Intermediate. I think this is is opposite of what you want to do. If your rating is above 935 than you can't play MA2, not if you are under you can't play MA1. Why stop players from moving up? I thought the problem was players staying down.
                  Mowens is right. Fingers' post is mis-worded. Any player can play in any higher skill division if they wish at any time.

                  It should read:

                  A -- any rating may play -- (for cash? "Pro?")
                  B -- rating must be <970 -- (for scrip? trophies? player packs? "Amateur?")
                  C -- rating must be <935 -- (for scrip? trophies? player packs? "Amateur?")
                  D -- rating must be <900 -- (for scrip? trophies? player packs? "Amateur?")
                  E -- rating must be <850 -- (for scrip? trophies? player packs? "Amateur?")
                  F -- rating must be <800 -- (for scrip? trophies? player packs? "Amateur?")

                  The simplicity is also beautiful. 6 divisions, that's it. No need for debatable division names, either. Plus, it's 21st-century friendly: no more sexism or agism!

                  For example, Mowens, at 924, can play C, B, or even step up to A and play for cash!

                  I refer you to my signature.
                  Ratings-based divisions: disc golf's inevitable future.
                  Disc Golf Calendar: www.NWDiscGolf.info, or click CALENDAR at top of page
                  Submit Event to Calendar: treelove@nwdiscgolf.info
                  Team Disc Golf: http://www.teamdiscgolf.com
                  Bitchin' URL: http://www.nwdiscgolf.com

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    I'd like to see the alphabet extended a little. 900 current members below 750. 700 below 700.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Divisions

                      I would change the mens divisions to adjust them higher. The women don't seem to have as many complainers as we do!!

                      Pro= any rating
                      Advanced= 951-980
                      intermediate= 921-950
                      recreational= 880-920
                      novice= 879 and below

                      The gap from 935 to 970 is a huge difference in consistency and mental game.
                      The players from 900 to 935 isn't nearly as hard of a gap to close. those players still make plenty of mistakes and they have some room for error.
                      Thats why I think there are always plenty of sandbaggers because the ratings make it a difficult to make the change to the higher divisions especially PRO.
                      Thanks,
                      Josh

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Nice post Treelove. That's basically a rating-based event which I support.

                        Originally posted by TreeLove View Post
                        I refer you to my signature.
                        You currently don't have a signature.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Scott View Post
                          The idea is that it would keep divisions competetive, giving everyone a fair chance.
                          It does more than that, it keeps the division sizes smaller so any one player doesn't win everybody else's entry fee. You want to play in MA1 then get your rating high enough to play in MA1.

                          And yes, I do disagree with Stern on this. No matter what you call the divisions you'll get lots of players signing up for divisions 2 and 3 higher than their rating. I too would be in favor of getting rid of the gender and age protected divisions for ratings based play.

                          This is purely about the AM side of the tourney. Anyone can play open for cash or you are not using the term open correctly. So Matt could play in MA2 or Open or Masters if old enough with a PDGA rating of 924.

                          Hath this whole world been mired in madness?
                          Remain ye men of faculty complete,
                          Of full arithmetic and prudence fair,
                          Attending to our noble bond and contract?
                          Or does here stand the last remaining man
                          To give a fig for rules and order yet,
                          No noble savage, but a stave unbroken
                          Who loves the law and bids it no misdeed.
                          Iíll not be bent to lawlessness. Mark it nought, if we be men of honour.

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                          • #73
                            until the pDGA

                            grows a pair bagging will continue but because to many TD's are making money off the NON CASHING PLAYERS. STRICT Ratings based events are just figment in our imaginations.
                            rewindb.com

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by mowens404 View Post
                              I do NOT like this idea. My rating is 924, I would not be OK with being forced into Intermediate. I think this is is opposite of what you want to do. If your rating is above 935 than you can't play MA2, not if you are under you can't play MA1. Why stop players from moving up? I thought the problem was players staying down.

                              In a "Rating Based" event...a player can ALWAYS play up.
                              It just protects everyone from those who ALWAYS stay down.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by couve discer View Post
                                I would change the mens divisions to adjust them higher. The women don't seem to have as many complainers as we do!!

                                Pro= any rating
                                Advanced= 951-980
                                intermediate= 921-950
                                recreational= 880-920
                                novice= 879 and below

                                The gap from 935 to 970 is a huge difference in consistency and mental game.
                                The players from 900 to 935 isn't nearly as hard of a gap to close. those players still make plenty of mistakes and they have some room for error.
                                Thats why I think there are always plenty of sandbaggers because the ratings make it a difficult to make the change to the higher divisions especially PRO.
                                Thanks,
                                Josh

                                The recreational level should be at 850-900.

                                The intermediate level should be at 900-935.

                                The novice level is <850.

                                Players with a rating over 935 are advanced players with the skills to shoot solid scores. They just don't shoot the solid rounds frequently enough to compete with the open and advanced baggers, but can hold they own if thier game is on.

                                Comment

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