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  • Originally posted by Sausage Fingers View Post
    It's all good Bryan. Your post was excellent and didn't need any mention of non-sanctioned play IMO.

    Even with all this discussion about ratings based AM play I have't even addressed the areas where the ratings do not work. (i.e. the players who do not have at least 10 rated rounds in competition) But that is yet another facet of the complex dynamic of ratings based AM play.

    From my memory, the guideline for accuracy of the rating system is at least 8 total rated rounds including at least four different courses. But as you mention that's definitely a hurdle to ratings-based AM play and competitive divisions.

    Comment


    • Jordan, you may have answered this but I am curious -

      What is your opposition (Or agreement) to allowing players to play above their division but not below. So in an essence allowing the few of us here speaking up to play at a higher division but pushing those that belong in the next division up to play there and not have the option to step into a lower division.

      I think that makes sense, if not ask, I'll clarify. My personal position is never to hold anyone from going forward to where they want to be but don't let them hang around in divisions they are clear more than skilled enough to be playing above.
      "Love is not primarily a relationship to a specific person. Love is an attitude, an ordination of character which determines the relatedness of the person to the whole world as a whole, not toward one object of love.Ē

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Jason Philips View Post
        Jordan, you may have answered this but I am curious -

        What is your opposition (Or agreement) to allowing players to play above their division but not below.
        I am so very (AND LOUDLY) OPPOSED to letting AMs play above their rating, I can hardly contain myself.

        Originally posted by Jason Philips View Post
        So in an essence allowing the few of us here speaking up to play at a higher division but pushing those that belong in the next division up to play there and not have the option to step into a lower division.
        You cannot force players up out of the top AM division. It just will not happen, ever. The PDGA has no desire to force people to play Pro. Period, end of discussion.

        So your "I wanna play up" idea will not work, as all you will do is bloat the division size of MA1 with lower rated players who will rarely even finish above the cash line.

        Originally posted by Jason Philips View Post
        My personal position is never to hold anyone from going forward to where they want to be but don't let them hang around in divisions they are clear more than skilled enough to be playing above.
        The problem isn't 935+ rated players in the MA2 division (if it is even offered in a tourney), that is already prohibited and (mostly) enforced. And the only players that the top AMs are "clearly more skilled than" are the players who should be playing in MA2 or even MA3.

        Unfortunately, at this time, you cannot even force a brand new player who has never played in a tournament from signing up for MA1! Let alone the whole massive group of "if I don't play up then people will say I have a small cock" MA2/MA3 players who have played in multiple tourneys and will not sign up for MA2 under ANY circumstances...

        I think I have been pretty clear with my views on this topic. When over half the golfers in MA1 do not qualify to play in the division AND you cannot make the top AM golfers turn Pro, if you do not have solid MA2/MA3 fields by forcing golfers to play in the correct divisions you will just keep keepin on and there is absolutely NO reason for any golfer to leave the warm glow of winning large fields in MA1.

        It is beyond my ability to express my feelings any better than that!

        Hath this whole world been mired in madness?
        Remain ye men of faculty complete,
        Of full arithmetic and prudence fair,
        Attending to our noble bond and contract?
        Or does here stand the last remaining man
        To give a fig for rules and order yet,
        No noble savage, but a stave unbroken
        Who loves the law and bids it no misdeed.
        Iíll not be bent to lawlessness. Mark it nought, if we be men of honour.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Jason Philips View Post
          Jordan, you may have answered this but I am curious -

          What is your opposition (Or agreement) to allowing players to play above their division but not below. So in an essence allowing the few of us here speaking up to play at a higher division but pushing those that belong in the next division up to play there and not have the option to step into a lower division.

          I think that makes sense, if not ask, I'll clarify. My personal position is never to hold anyone from going forward to where they want to be but don't let them hang around in divisions they are clear more than skilled enough to be playing above.

          This is a good question.

          Registration numbers are sky rocketing, especially in well known, prestigious events.

          The hard working dedicated quality MA1 golfer gets edged out of events by a casual golfer who simply "wants" to play. Or by a dedicated, but newer less skilled golfer. Or by an older crusty golfer. There is a bottleneck in the MA1 field that needs attention. It has become difficult to gain entry to these events.

          Open is open but the same logic applies.

          There is potential for lower rated (less skilled) players taking precious spots away from the MA1 (or open) field.

          Playing in an A-tier or a highly sought after prestigious event is a privilege. Some restrictions might be in order?

          Comment


          • Jordan, not every player who plays in a higher division is doing so because of naming conventions or due to trying to be a man. I play up because I know people in those divisions that I would like to play alongside, I also do want to learn as I compete by watching at a higher level, I do want a higher level of ettiquette, and I do want a higher level of general sportsmanship. Your adamant need for people to be stuck in pigeon holes of your determination just smells of frustration at this point of having less spots for your division by having higher numbers in another division.

            I doubt at this point I'll change your mind or that you'll change mine. I am not offended by your comments and look forward to playing a round with you soon. At this point though I am stepping out of this conversation. If you need to respond or want to continue the specific conversation with me we can do it in person where we can enjoy a beer or two at the same time.
            "Love is not primarily a relationship to a specific person. Love is an attitude, an ordination of character which determines the relatedness of the person to the whole world as a whole, not toward one object of love.Ē

            Comment


            • Originally posted by bryan_luoma View Post
              This is a good question.

              Registration numbers are sky rocketing, especially in well known, prestigious events.

              The hard working dedicated quality MA1 golfer gets edged out of events by a casual golfer who simply "wants" to play. Or by a dedicated, but newer less skilled golfer. Or by an older crusty golfer. There is a bottleneck in the MA1 field that needs attention. It has become difficult to gain entry to these events.

              Open is open but the same logic applies.

              There is potential for lower rated (less skilled) players taking precious spots away from the MA1 (or open) field.

              Playing in an A-tier or a highly sought after prestigious event is a privilege. Some restrictions might be in order?
              This is a path that I am hesitant to travel down, but would like to. As bad as this might sound, I think it is a bit unfair that a dedicated tourney player (5 events or more) might get edged out of an A-tier by someone who has never even played a tourney. Its my opinion that new tourney players should be cutting their teeth on C tiers, then B Tiers, not on the very highest level amateur events. I truly think it takes a few smaller events for someone to really get their tournament game together.
              "You won't like me when I am angry, because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources". - The Credible Hulk

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Jason Philips View Post
                I do want a higher level of ettiquette, and I do want a higher level of general sportsmanship.
                WHY CAN'T THIS BE POSSIBLE IN MA2?!?!?!?

                Originally posted by Jason Philips View Post
                Your adamant need for people to be stuck in pigeon holes of your determination just smells of frustration at this point of having less spots for your division by having higher numbers in another division.
                That's a real funny one right there. Did you also miss the fact that I said we could DO AWAY WITH the age restricted divisions if we only had REAL amateur divisions that made sense?

                Originally posted by Jason Philips View Post
                I doubt at this point I'll change your mind or that you'll change mine.
                Or the minds of any of the other MA2/MA3 golfers hellbent on donating their entry money to the MA1 field...

                Hell if you really want to "learn as I compete by watching at a higher level" then TRULY man-up and play PRO! That's where you will see some serious game on display.

                And do not worry Jason, I do not take any of this personally. You are always a great guy to play a round of golf with.

                Hath this whole world been mired in madness?
                Remain ye men of faculty complete,
                Of full arithmetic and prudence fair,
                Attending to our noble bond and contract?
                Or does here stand the last remaining man
                To give a fig for rules and order yet,
                No noble savage, but a stave unbroken
                Who loves the law and bids it no misdeed.
                Iíll not be bent to lawlessness. Mark it nought, if we be men of honour.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Bullseye View Post
                  This is a path that I am hesitant to travel down, but would like to. As bad as this might sound, I think it is a bit unfair that a dedicated tourney player (5 events or more) might get edged out of an A-tier by someone who has never even played a tourney. Its my opinion that new tourney players should be cutting their teeth on C tiers, then B Tiers, not on the very highest level amateur events. I truly think it takes a few smaller events for someone to really get their tournament game together.
                  I agree with this so much that I think it should also apply to playing in the MA1 division in all tourney regardless of tiers.

                  Hath this whole world been mired in madness?
                  Remain ye men of faculty complete,
                  Of full arithmetic and prudence fair,
                  Attending to our noble bond and contract?
                  Or does here stand the last remaining man
                  To give a fig for rules and order yet,
                  No noble savage, but a stave unbroken
                  Who loves the law and bids it no misdeed.
                  Iíll not be bent to lawlessness. Mark it nought, if we be men of honour.

                  Comment


                  • I don't think that it is fair to say that someone does or doesn't qualify to play in a certain division. I would also say that I don't think it is fair that new players not be allowed to play in certain events. "The hard working dedicated quality MA1 golfer gets edged out of events by a casual golfer who simply "wants" to play. Or by a dedicated, but newer less skilled golfer" Why shouldn't a new golfer get in? is it not an open tournament for anyone to play that gets in? Why does "newer" golfer have anything to do with it? Have you earned a spot in a tournament over "andrew" (made up name) who has come along to a bunch of tournaments and loves to play but doesn't play in tournaments usually? Our sport would not grow at that point. We would be turning the newbs down in favor of the "dedicated quality MA1 golfers"
                    Fear of any kind is the number one enemy of all golfers regardless of ball-striking and shot-making capabilities.

                    Comment


                    • Maybe ams should have to play a certain amount of tournaments/year or have a 935+ rating in order to play in an A- Tier.
                      "What's in the bag", pdga #37977, dgcr #356, **Team Chainbanger'z**


                      You are never really playing an opponent. You are playing yourself, your own highest standards, and when you reach your limits, that is real joy.
                      -- Arthur Ashe

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by mowens404 View Post
                        I don't think that it is fair to say that someone does or doesn't qualify to play in a certain division. I would also say that I don't think it is fair that new players not be allowed to play in certain events. "The hard working dedicated quality MA1 golfer gets edged out of events by a casual golfer who simply "wants" to play. Or by a dedicated, but newer less skilled golfer" Why shouldn't a new golfer get in? is it not an open tournament for anyone to play that gets in? Why does "newer" golfer have anything to do with it? Have you earned a spot in a tournament over "andrew" (made up name) who has come along to a bunch of tournaments and loves to play but doesn't play in tournaments usually? Our sport would not grow at that point. We would be turning the newbs down in favor of the "dedicated quality MA1 golfers"
                        We wouldn't be turning them down forever, we would simply be telling them to get a little experience first.

                        My analogy has been this: I don't go to a garage sale, buy a bobsled and show up at the Winter Olympics expecting to run that thing down the mountain. Those people have put time in to get where they are, it's only fair that I should be expected to do the same. Bear in mind, I am ONLY taking about A-Tiers... the very highest level of amateur disc golf.
                        "You won't like me when I am angry, because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources". - The Credible Hulk

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Bullseye View Post
                          We wouldn't be turning them down forever, we would simply be telling them to get a little experience first.

                          My analogy has been this: I don't go to a garage sale, buy a bobsled and show up at the Winter Olympics expecting to run that thing down the mountain. Those people have put time in to get where they are, it's only fair that I should be expected to do the same. Bear in mind, I am ONLY taking about A-Tiers... the very highest level of amateur disc golf.
                          This is my thinking exactly but I would apply this thinking to the MA1 division itself on nearly all tiers. As long as the TD offers MA2/MA3 there will always be a place for the new(er) players to play. And if the TD could actually force golfers to play in their rated division then we could actually HAVE good MA2/MA3 divisions...

                          Hath this whole world been mired in madness?
                          Remain ye men of faculty complete,
                          Of full arithmetic and prudence fair,
                          Attending to our noble bond and contract?
                          Or does here stand the last remaining man
                          To give a fig for rules and order yet,
                          No noble savage, but a stave unbroken
                          Who loves the law and bids it no misdeed.
                          Iíll not be bent to lawlessness. Mark it nought, if we be men of honour.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Bullseye View Post
                            We wouldn't be turning them down forever, we would simply be telling them to get a little experience first.

                            My analogy has been this: I don't go to a garage sale, buy a bobsled and show up at the Winter Olympics expecting to run that thing down the mountain. Those people have put time in to get where they are, it's only fair that I should be expected to do the same. Bear in mind, I am ONLY taking about A-Tiers... the very highest level of amateur disc golf.
                            This is such BS!


















                            Everybody knows you can't find bobsleds at garage sales. Get real Hagerty!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Matt B. View Post
                              This is such BS!

                              Everybody knows you can't find bobsleds at garage sales. Get real Hagerty!
                              Clearly you've never been to a Canadian garage sale.
                              "You won't like me when I am angry, because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources". - The Credible Hulk

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by mowens404 View Post
                                I don't think that it is fair to say that someone does or doesn't qualify to play in a certain division. I would also say that I don't think it is fair that new players not be allowed to play in certain events. "The hard working dedicated quality MA1 golfer gets edged out of events by a casual golfer who simply "wants" to play. Or by a dedicated, but newer less skilled golfer" Why shouldn't a new golfer get in? is it not an open tournament for anyone to play that gets in? Why does "newer" golfer have anything to do with it? Have you earned a spot in a tournament over "andrew" (made up name) who has come along to a bunch of tournaments and loves to play but doesn't play in tournaments usually? Our sport would not grow at that point. We would be turning the newbs down in favor of the "dedicated quality MA1 golfers"
                                It isn't the n00b versus vet argument at all.
                                The issue is that the demand for entry into the competition exceeds the supply.
                                The field sizes are limited to a finite number of players. Who gets to play?

                                First come first served?
                                Lottery?
                                Performance based?

                                Have you ever had a job interview where the single position available had multiple candidates?
                                Have you ever had to tryout to make a team?

                                I don't know exactly what it looks like or how to implement it, but performance based qualification seems like something to look into, IMO.

                                Comment

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