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  • Originally posted by Sam View Post
    So it was about Dan... but there was never any intention of donating the money anywhere...

    Am I the only one who is completely lost here?
    Nope
    Throw What You Know.
    "Gravity, she's a harsh mistress." -The Tick
    PDGA# 45989

    Comment


    • Originally posted by DexterHawk View Post
      I wanna see some folks make a living on disc golfers.
      This already happens for manufacturers. I only feel this is true for TDs that can get major sponsorship and get us to the future of disc golf I think we all want. I want to see Nike sponsor a tornament with $1 million. No TD should be getting a >$50,000/year salary for throwing little tournaments where the winner is only getting $1,000.


      Originally posted by DexterHawk View Post
      We're a growing community and it's about time that we started taking care of some of our own so they can focus their energies and talents on making our sport grow and get better. I would much rather see us reward TDs this way than a bunch of whiny pros.

      I agree with this, but to me taking care of TDs does not mean paying them more than the winner of the open division.

      Originally posted by DexterHawk View Post
      And as for a shangrila where happy discers just cruised the country making a living flinging plastic this too is a myth.
      I never said anything about discers travelling around the country making a living on disc golf.

      Comment


      • The reality is that there's not enough money in entry fees, even considering the retail/wholesale conversion from amateurs, for TDs and their team in the biggest events to get paid even minimum wage for the amount of time they put in to host and run an event. I would propose that we change the terminology from TDs getting "paid" to TDs getting a "fair honorarium" for their services in the same way celebrities get honorariums for showing up to help run charity events where they receive much less than their normal pay.

        Where TDs and assistants can actually get "paid" is by keeping a 10% commission on cash sponsorship raised and for sales of merchandise they have purchased for resale whether disc related gear or food.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Chuck Kennedy View Post
          The reality is that there's not enough money in entry fees, even considering the retail/wholesale conversion from amateurs, for TDs and their team in the biggest events to get paid even minimum wage for the amount of time they put in to host and run an event. I would propose that we change the terminology from TDs getting "paid" to TDs getting a "fair honorarium" for their services in the same way celebrities get honorariums for showing up to help run charity events where they receive much less than their normal pay.

          Where TDs and assistants can actually get "paid" is by keeping a 10% commission on cash sponsorship raised and for sales of merchandise they have purchased for resale whether disc related gear or food.
          That assumes that we keep the 100% + model for payouts...
          I've played a lot of sports in my life, paid entry fees, registration fees, field dues, club memberships... But disc golf is the first sport I've played where a "recreational" player expects to be compensated at basically the same rate as a pro for their play in comparison to their peers.

          That said, you're right about entry fees... They should be higher...

          Tough to do in a sport where regular participation, despite requiring specialized equipment and access to valuable land is totally free.

          Comment


          • I was going to suggest it but it looks like Chuck already did above (which makes me think that it's legit), that TD's get compensated by keeping 10-15% of all outside sponsorship (this is absolutely ethical when you consider some "non profit" organizations keep as much as 50% for "expenses, salaries" etc). That would take care of reimbursing them for the pro's and the profit made in scrip takes care of the am's in addition to a fee charged for any vendors. That would also be an incentive for TD's to garner as much outside sponsorship as possible. The more sponsors they rustle up, the more money they make. Everybody benefits! You get a nice balance when growing payouts are commensurate to the growth of the sport. The snowball effect then comes into play as tournaments will become more standardized and more efficiently managed because that is what will be expected.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by loki View Post
              That would also be an incentive for TD's to garner as much outside sponsorship as possible. The more sponsors they rustle up, the more money they make. Everybody benefits!
              Exactly! TDs working hard for big sponsorship $ for huge payouts and good compensation for their work.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Jim J View Post
                The problem with this whole discussion is that it's based on the assumption that a tournament makes a profit and the TD can take some of this profit.

                But what's the true profit when the tourney's income and expense statement doesn't reflect true costs of running the tournament? Specifically I'm talking about the the infusion of capital provided by the volunteers. It's essential to a tourney's success and completely off the books. There'd be no profits to pay a TD without volunteers, which is probably true for the Olympics too.

                That being said, I agree with DexterHawk that there's nothing immoral or unethical to compensating TDs, or co-TDs, or teachers for that matter. And anytime the value of the tournament equals or exceeds the entry fees (which is almost all the time at PDGA events), the TDs and clubs who back them should be free to manage all aspects of the tourney, including compensation, as they wish.
                If a tournament has no profit margin then why should there be compensation? The Olympics draw such huge numbers of spectators that the local businesses benefit so largely that volunteers have no problem giving of their time because the city or region is going to benefit tremendously (no one benefits, because everyone benefits).

                Now, a business who sells a product and doesn't make a profit can't decide to take the product from the person paying for it and give it to themselves. They have to give the product to the person paying for it and pay taxes, overhead, employee wages, and the person they bought the product from. A tournament is kinda like a small business, if your margins don't reflect a profit...then you don't get any!

                Profit or compensation can be reflected in the flyer for the tournament. I would associate it to when you go to a store and they add money for you to use your debit card. This is an upfront charge that you can either pay or not based on how bad you want the product you are purchasing. TD's, If you want the compensation let it be known, if you don't then don't take any.

                Comment


                • The PDGA guidelines indicate the maximum TD honorarium can only be deducted if the other payout guidelines are met.

                  Comment


                  • After a week long hiatus. I was curious to read how this had progressed.

                    Mark I am glad you (and the PCDGPA) are running something. Not really the same as a "one man show" but it's still a start. Will you agree to post your finances page as I have done? You said you will work for free, prove it!

                    The biggest joke was from DD's no sponsorship no percentage idea. Did I advertise added cash Only If I reached the 60 player threshold. Did that happen? No.

                    I asked earlier what priorities I should assign to what things
                    Is course maintenance more or less important then hunting sponsors?

                    As a TD it's up to me to decide and I choose to benefit the entire community year round with course maintenance vs the benefit of the Open players on just one weekend. (Who did benefit from the course conditions but I guess it just was not enough). Again NOT ONE Open player ever offered to add cash or to hunt sponsorships for their Open weekend. It's "the little red hen" story if you ask me

                    Volunteers or conscripts?
                    When I said I had to pay to get a weed eater fixed did you think it was mine? It belongs to a volunteer that was broken during the lead up to CSI. Did I (CSI) have to fix it? No. But it was the right thing to do. Mix, Line, Paint provided by me as well as 3 tarps. Crap I forgot to take the $50 worth of circle paint. Oh well you guys got me again

                    Someone mentioned Set up/Take down. Yes I had help setting up but it was all me tearing it down.

                    In my opinion our two biggest problems are
                    1. That players beleive they deserve to be anointed with ONLY the best available even at the events expense and/or off the TD's back and don't have to do anything to recevie it but show up.
                      From the leftover PP to the last 5 CFR's It's always up to the TD to make ends meet even if it takes all year. Players get paid instantly TD's SPECULATE and hope to just break even.

                    2. Budget Pros.
                      One's who probably should have stayed home and paid there bills instead of gambling it away. "I gotta win cause my cat needs to go to the vet" mentality. How the hell can I cope with that self imposed stress the player has put him/herself under.

                    Just for chucks and giggles What If I had ...



                    fish on!
                    rewindb.com

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                      I am sure that this thread will still be going strong or he will respond to revive it. YAY!
                      I would like to take this brief moment to say...

                      "SEE! I told ya!"
                      ďI believe I can hit 18 greens, hit every fairway, you know ó Vision 54, which means you birdie every hole, thatís in the back of my mind. I want to putt better, chip better. That day when I hit 18 greens and one putt, Iíll know Iím a complete golfer. Will that ever happen? Iím not sure, but itís possible. The 54 vision is always in the back of my mind.Ē
                      ~Annika SŲrenstam

                      Comment


                      • I saw you in the alley jonseing for a jub fix. i had to hook a bruther up
                        rewindb.com

                        Comment


                        • so that was why sam was twitching all funny on sunday...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by LJ Jubner View Post
                            Mark I am glad you (and the PCDGPA) are running something. Not really the same as a "one man show" but it's still a start. Will you agree to post your finances page as I have done? You said you will work for free, prove it!

                            The biggest joke was from DD's no sponsorship no percentage idea. Did I advertise added cash Only If I reached the 60 player threshold. Did that happen? No.

                            I asked earlier what priorities I should assign to what things
                            Is course maintenance more or less important then hunting sponsors?

                            As a TD it's up to me to decide and I choose to benefit the entire community year round with course maintenance vs the benefit of the Open players on just one weekend. (Who did benefit from the course conditions but I guess it just was not enough). Again NOT ONE Open player ever offered to add cash or to hunt sponsorships for their Open weekend. It's "the little red hen" story if you ask me

                            Volunteers or conscripts?
                            When I said I had to pay to get a weed eater fixed did you think it was mine? It belongs to a volunteer that was broken during the lead up to CSI. Did I (CSI) have to fix it? No. But it was the right thing to do. Mix, Line, Paint provided by me as well as 3 tarps. Crap I forgot to take the $50 worth of circle paint. Oh well you guys got me again

                            Someone mentioned Set up/Take down. Yes I had help setting up but it was all me tearing it down.

                            In my opinion our two biggest problems are
                            1. That players beleive they deserve to be anointed with ONLY the best available even at the events expense and/or off the TD's back and don't have to do anything to recevie it but show up.
                              From the leftover PP to the last 5 CFR's It's always up to the TD to make ends meet even if it takes all year. Players get paid instantly TD's SPECULATE and hope to just break even.

                            2. Budget Pros.
                              One's who probably should have stayed home and paid there bills instead of gambling it away. "I gotta win cause my cat needs to go to the vet" mentality. How the hell can I cope with that self imposed stress the player has put him/herself under.

                            Just for chucks and giggles What If I had ...



                            fish on!
                            JUB YOUR A JOKE and we already proved it. deal with it.I guess we will see how many players liked what you did this year, next year.Everything from the RAYMOND SIECK INVITATIONAL will be online after the event because it is a club event and we are a players association. The club may make money but there will not be one cent in my pocket. I have also kept track of all hours i have spent so far working on this event. There are poeple that will do it for free and do a better job then you, at least cheaper then you.
                            We all should take better care in our courses

                            Comment


                            • Dare I say it again...

                              YOU'RE*

                              And... you get what you pay for, I guess. If you do it for free and Jub does it for a fee, I would expect the quality of his tournament to far exceed yours. Or is it... you'res?
                              ďI believe I can hit 18 greens, hit every fairway, you know ó Vision 54, which means you birdie every hole, thatís in the back of my mind. I want to putt better, chip better. That day when I hit 18 greens and one putt, Iíll know Iím a complete golfer. Will that ever happen? Iím not sure, but itís possible. The 54 vision is always in the back of my mind.Ē
                              ~Annika SŲrenstam

                              Comment


                              • Way to correct spelling on the personal attack, Sam. Shouldn't we just warn/suspend him instead?

                                Comment

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