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  • #16
    Ball golf: Their courses are great places to play disc golf
    Disc Golf: Our courses are horrible places to play ball golf (the majority of the time)

    Advantage: Tennis...
    "Honest work is for the downtrodden and the Polish"
    Cleveland Brown

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Flash View Post
      Competitive standpoint

      Disc Golf - Grass roots by comparison, internet broadcast or youtube videos, rules are more implied, Winners make at best 50:1 on entry fees, players more often respect themselves before the game, penalties sting but don't ruin a game, Spectatorship is strongly driven by players who watch or attend, more re-branders.
      I've played with and around a lot of the top players in our sport and while their are many really sincere and generous players it's true that most of them feel like they should be in charge and are not hesitant to publicly bad mouth TDs, courses / layouts, rules and even the PDGA. That said I think that has more to do with the nascent nature of our sport than it does the people involved.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by DexterHawk View Post
        I've played with and around a lot of the top players in our sport and while their are many really sincere and generous players it's true that most of them feel like they should be in charge and are not hesitant to publicly bad mouth TDs, courses / layouts, rules and even the PDGA. That said I think that has more to do with the nascent nature of our sport than it does the people involved.
        Andy good point, its probably more true then we can know right now but only time will tell.

        Byron, I made my point to competition only, sure there are awesome and amazing golfers I meet everytime I am on the course. Most amateurs fit into this category, however on the tour, which is what I am comparing, most disc golfers attitude reflect my previous judgment.

        I think the biggest hurdle our sport are the rules. A rule where a player can solely determine an unplayable and take relief is ridiculous. Our rules allow players to twist them to their advantage in a lot of ways and that just seems wrong. Our rules put the players on the defensive against each other and people consider it a personal attack if a rule violation is called. Watching it is almost vindictive, when someone gets called they start looking to bust the person who called them. I have seen this way to many times for it to be isolated instances.

        Man I guess I do sounds cynical, I should really work on that!
        PDGA #25296
        Stumptown #34

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        • #19
          There's obviously less professionalism in disc golf than ball golf. There are many reasons for this. Obviously, Avery Jenkins doesn't have a media coach advising him what to say in front of the camera. Disc golf hasn't fully evolved, or 'grown up' yet as some might say. I would venture to guess that ball golf endured the same lack of 'professionalism' and rules debates in the game's infancy. Today's amateur golfers surely debate/bend the rules, and talk smack about course design, but they are not paid professionals.
          While I'd never intentionally foot-fault or bend the rules in disc golf, I wouldn't hesitate to tee-up my ball on the fairway-- I respect the rules of disc golf much more than I do the rules of bolf. After all, I'm investing $40 in the round, cart, and cooler of beer, so I'm gonna have a good time. Besides, I've got more slice than Wonder Bread, nobody in my group cares, & I don't play bolf competitively (the worms may disagree).
          Last edited by Toby Puttzinski; March 1st, 2011, 01:14 AM.
          Don't just walk past that candy wrapper on the fairway-- I know you saw it!

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          • #20
            Racing tires are to shoe soles as bolf is to frolf.
            Last edited by REDFIVE; March 1st, 2011, 07:19 PM.
            Click here

            Challenge disc golf

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Flash View Post
              Andy good point, its probably more true then we can know right now but only time will tell.

              Byron, I made my point to competition only, sure there are awesome and amazing golfers I meet everytime I am on the course. Most amateurs fit into this category, however on the tour, which is what I am comparing, most disc golfers attitude reflect my previous judgment.

              I think the biggest hurdle our sport are the rules. A rule where a player can solely determine an unplayable and take relief is ridiculous. Our rules allow players to twist them to their advantage in a lot of ways and that just seems wrong. Our rules put the players on the defensive against each other and people consider it a personal attack if a rule violation is called. Watching it is almost vindictive, when someone gets called they start looking to bust the person who called them. I have seen this way to many times for it to be isolated instances.

              Man I guess I do sounds cynical, I should really work on that!
              I totally agree... but this is not impossible to remedy... Just look at Ultimate. A physical team sport where players referee themselves. In Ultimate they call sportsmanship "spirit of the game" and it is almost sacred. The truth is that until players make a stonger effort to use the rules more often (i.e. call eachother / discuss the rules during rounds) or we get more officials on the courses at big tournaments we're going to have to settle for the huge amount of gray area that exists in our sport right now. That said, I think that more effort should be made top down from the PDGA to simplify the rules in a way that they can be put on a half a sheet of paper and easily taught in a half hour session.

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              • #22
                I was just thinking about Ultimate and S.O.T.G. when reading this thread earlier. I wonder if it's easier to enforce there because it's a TEAM sport -- if someone starts copping an attitude, they've got their whole crew there to rein them back in. And it's in a player's best interest to stay in good with the team.
                Oregon disc golf map

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Adam Schneider View Post
                  I was just thinking about Ultimate and S.O.T.G. when reading this thread earlier. I wonder if it's easier to enforce there because it's a TEAM sport -- if someone starts copping an attitude, they've got their whole crew there to rein them back in. And it's in a player's best interest to stay in good with the team.
                  My thoughts exactly!
                  PDGA #25296
                  Stumptown #34

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Adam Schneider View Post
                    I was just thinking about Ultimate and S.O.T.G. when reading this thread earlier. I wonder if it's easier to enforce there because it's a TEAM sport -- if someone starts copping an attitude, they've got their whole crew there to rein them back in. And it's in a player's best interest to stay in good with the team.
                    I'm not sure about this.

                    Spirit of the game in ultimate is more prevalent in casual games like city leagues and pickup. When you start moving into highly-competitive play, spirit tends to break down, which is why the UPA has gravitated toward the use of observers in these situations. The same dynamic seems to hold true for DG.

                    I also think that a lot of the calls you make in ultimate (picks, fast count, travelling, contact with the thrower before release) are a lot more subjective than calls you make in DG. Plus, DG calls generally have to be seconded by another person in your group, which adds another layer of control.

                    While I understand the need for rules, I'll always make a distinction between violation of rules that create an unfair advantage and those that don't. For example, if a player takes a second throw from the middle of a big, open field and their plant foot isn't completely lined up with their mini, I'm not going to say anything. But if they're stretching around a tree and the pant foot drifts, then I will.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Adam Schneider View Post
                      I was just thinking about Ultimate and S.O.T.G. when reading this thread earlier. I wonder if it's easier to enforce there because it's a TEAM sport -- if someone starts copping an attitude, they've got their whole crew there to rein them back in. And it's in a player's best interest to stay in good with the team.
                      Also, there are basically 14 refs on the field and a whole bunch on the sideline. The peer pressure is overwhelming to keep it legit although there are a few miscreants.

                      The UPA did a smart thing a few years back by publishing "10 Simple Rules Of Ultimate" on the website. We got the card in our membership packs if I remember correctly. The PDGA should do the same thing. It's a cheap and effective way to get the most basic rules out there.
                      Panda...it's what's for dinner!

                      Team Deucebag

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Jim J View Post
                        While I understand the need for rules, I'll always make a distinction between violation of rules that create an unfair advantage and those that don't. For example, if a player takes a second throw from the middle of a big, open field and their plant foot isn't completely lined up with their mini, I'm not going to say anything. But if they're stretching around a tree and the pant foot drifts, then I will.
                        Nice post.

                        Maybe it's because I haven't played in the pro ranks yet but the foot fault stuff has never confronted me too harshly in my competitive rounds. If I notice a fellow competitor missing his mark I wait until we are both walking and say quietly "hey watch your foot cause if you get called on it, it will be a drag for all of us."

                        A bit outside the rules? Yes. In the spirit of them ( an extra warning essentially) I thinks so.

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                        • #27
                          Having had a tournament round killed because of two people that were less than thrilled with my performance. I called one foot fault on this person at D.R.O (they shall remain nameless) and he seconded it. That was his warning of course. He did the same maneuver again and he was called by another player on the card. This time I seconded it (the second fault was much more blatant than the 1st). This infuriated the person in question. As we walked to the next hole, he lagged behind and started talking to his friend who was also on our card (at this point I was first on the card). Next tee, I get called on a foot fault for my toe being over off the pad. I second it because I knew I slipped. The re-tee results in a more than stellar drive. I get called on a foot fault again (was nowhere near the front of the pad because I was worried about doing it again). It was immediately seconded by his friend, who was, by all accounts of the last person on our card, not even watching since he was digging in his bag. I re-tee again and hit a tree.

                          This pattern happened for the next 12 holes. I got called on equipment interference because the instigator had a roll away and his disc hit my equipment. He called it, it was seconded immediately. I brought to his attention that he had never asked for me to move my bag and therefore couldn't call me on an interference call. This caused a ruckus and was immediately transferred over to the T.D. for a decision. He ruled in favor of me. Pretty much all of my throws that were stellar, were immediately pulled back because of these two. The last person on the card even brought it to the attention of the T.D. that he had seen nothing like it. Took my round which should of been a 52-55 and turned it into a 65 because of penalties. This made my mental game go to crap which in turn made me shoot an even worse round the 2nd round. After both rounds, I ran into the two people that were calling me on all these "faults". They both laughed and said "maybe next time you'll watch who you call on a foot fault, won't ya?" When I said it was blatant, the reply was something along the lines of "Well who gives an eff?".

                          This type of behavior has happened more than once at a tournament. Seen some very bad behavior on those who are getting worked. I've never seen this type of poor sportsmanship in a ball golf tournament. This is a difference, unfortunately, that falls into the Pro Ball Golf Category.
                          "Honest work is for the downtrodden and the Polish"
                          Cleveland Brown

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                          • #28
                            Wow! A pair to draw to. They should have a warning tattooed on their foreheads.
                            The Corporate Empire is NOT a Constitutional Republic...
                            ...but it plays one on TV.

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                            • #29
                              Wow Scales that pisses me off just to read about. I'm not sure I would be able to show the admirable self controll you are showing by not listing these people's names. Jerks like that shouldn't even be allowed in tournaments.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Bryon_Harris View Post
                                Jerks like that shouldn't even be allowed in tournaments.
                                When two people in a group decide to collude, you are screwed.

                                PDGA board had a discussion of a player deep in the thicket who throws a bad recovery shot and calls himself for a foot fault, which his colluder seconds. (Of course the guy was in so deep no one knows if he foot faulted or not.)

                                Then comes a better executed throw, no penalty, and the favor is returned later in the round.

                                Tough for mortals to prevent this, which is why we have Karma.

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