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  • Tournament Director Compensation -- Public Accounting of Tournament Fees

    I was at the Mystery Tournament in Fall City on Saturday and heard a conversation about keeping tournament fee accounting private. Apparently PDGA allows tour directors to charge a maximum of $100 for their services, for a tier C event. Higher events allow more money for the tour director. One fellow said "can you imagine the bitching if people knew that the TD was taking some of the money instead of putting into payouts? It's not like TDs don't do a lot of work and deserve the money, but people would scream." Well, it seems to me that we all should know where all the money goes. I don't begrudge a TD compensation for his work, but don't I have a right to know that he is taking some of the money and how much? I mean, if you pay attention to the payouts, you can kinda figure out how much they had left. Why not be above board on this issue?

  • #2
    If the accounting isn't transparent, you always have the option to not play in the tournament.
    We're at our best when it's from our hips

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    • #3
      Well, it seems to me that we all should know where all the money goes. I don't begrudge a TD compensation for his work, but don't I have a right to know that he is taking some of the money and how much? I mean, if you pay attention to the payouts, you can kinda figure out how much they had left. Why not be above board on this issue?
      Do you care how the park director, staff and officials divide the money collected for Little League, Peewee football, soccer or tennis tournies? How much the burger flipper at McDonald's gets from your purchase?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Chuck Kennedy View Post
        Do you care how the park director, staff and officials divide the money collected for Little League, Peewee football, soccer or tennis tournies? How much the burger flipper at McDonald's gets from your purchase?
        yes, yes, yes, not really because McDonalds doesn't flip burgers any more.
        Throw What You Know.
        "Gravity, she's a harsh mistress." -The Tick
        PDGA# 45989

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        • #5
          Originally posted by CrazyDriver View Post
          I don't begrudge a TD compensation for his work, but don't I have a right to know that he is taking some of the money and how much? I mean, if you pay attention to the payouts, you can kinda figure out how much they had left. Why not be above board on this issue?
          Of course you don't have a "right" to know. Not a natural right or an earned right or a right conferred to you by some authority. You have a "want" to know.

          And I want Angie Dickinson to tongue my balls.

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          • #6
            Really? Angie Dickinson? I can think of several hundred people I would pick first... unless you know something about her skills in this area that you are not sharing with the group.
            ďI believe I can hit 18 greens, hit every fairway, you know ó Vision 54, which means you birdie every hole, thatís in the back of my mind. I want to putt better, chip better. That day when I hit 18 greens and one putt, Iíll know Iím a complete golfer. Will that ever happen? Iím not sure, but itís possible. The 54 vision is always in the back of my mind.Ē
            ~Annika SŲrenstam

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            • #7
              I think Matt's vicariously operating off of Uncle Junior's tastes.

              But yeah, as to financial transparency, it's not a big deal to me. If I had a good time and felt I got my money's worth, that's enough for me. Most of the time, a TD is struggling to simply break even on a tournament, but there are TDs that are able to turn a slight profit from running tourneys (it really helps if you're a vendor). But, in at least a few cases I know of, people heard there was a profit being made, and that naturally evolved into people thinking the tournaments were basically profiteering schemes and of course, people started complaining about it. Due to that kind of bitching, the TDs got tired of it, and in turn, we've lost some great TDs both locally and nationally. I can't say I fault their decisions.
              Untwist thine undergarments, 'tis but a Frisbee.

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              • #8
                CrazyDriver, if you want more intimate knowledge tournament finances, then grab a clipboard and run a tournament.

                I'd like to see a reference to whatever laws dictate this financial transparency that you supposedly have a right to. I do not believe they exist.
                The only thing miraculous about ICP is the fact that their children look like them...

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                • #9
                  I think a great way to do this would be to make PDGA reports viewable online. You would also have to make the "accounting" section of the report mandatory to complete. I agree with most all points raised so far about TD's being under more scrutiny than most other things people contribute $$ to & opting out of tourney's you don't like the behind-the-scenes stuff on.

                  IMO, I don't think it is necessarily a "right" for people to know - but as crazydriver said, what is there to lose by being "above board" as a TD and upfront about the accounting for a tournament?
                  All that said, I'll gladly post my accounting for our Ice Bowl online...
                  'Weekend 4 Women':
                  Saturday, June 30th - Sudoku Showdown II - FREE PDGA XC Tier
                  Sunday, July 1st - Seattle SuperClassic - FREE PDGA XC Tier

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                  • #10
                    I also wonder what can be done to provide incentives for TD's to run tournaments. As it stands, like Tim mentioned, TD's who take anything back for their hard work are shamed by players (99% of which contribute nothing to a tournament) which contributes to burnout.

                    Might be a bit controversial, but what about a mandated incentive from PDGA, even if it were a very small amount. For example TD's must take $50 for running a C-tier event - they can choose to donate back if they really want but something to destigmatize TD's getting something in return.
                    'Weekend 4 Women':
                    Saturday, June 30th - Sudoku Showdown II - FREE PDGA XC Tier
                    Sunday, July 1st - Seattle SuperClassic - FREE PDGA XC Tier

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                    • #11
                      TD's should be compensated for their work. Reason, its WORK! Events should be run like a business. Like my business's, if you ask to see my books, I say get bent, none of your business! If more people could actually profit from this sport, there would be a lot more participation in the admin side of things and we wouldn't lose good TD's.
                      A bad day on the golf course is better than a good day at work!

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                      • #12
                        Hey were losing sight of why we play disc golf ....... because its fun. I personally don't care where the money goes Ive heard lots of story's about this and I must say it again its fun to play a tournament and we shouldn't care where the money is going.
                        PDGA # 31451
                        2 Mini Aces
                        74 Aces
                        PEOPLE WHO HELP ME LOTS IN DISC GOLF
                        DISC GOLF OR DIE
                        BOB CABAL
                        DISCVANGO
                        JEFF ELLIOT
                        G-MAN
                        JORDAN LEWIS
                        JEFF HAGERTY
                        JAMES GARCELON
                        SAM GIBSON

                        And always remember, life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by those moments that take our breath away.

                        George Carlin

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                        • #13
                          I disagree. I believe people trying to profit from the sport is why we lose good T.D.'s. That's the main reason why I'm a non-profit club. For one, my books have to be open to the public. For two, in order to the sport to grow you have to give to it not take from it. There is not enough money involved to run it like a business. If you did the T.D. would make about .10 cents an hour for all the time they spend before and after a tournament. You would have to sell allot of discs, food, drinks, and other stuff to ever make a business from it. Even the P.G.A. don't pay anybody at there tournaments. It's all volunteer. It all goes to payout, administration. charity. You should want to do this to promote the sport not yourself. Open a store if you want to run a business. Unless you have a business licience you shouldn't be making money on other people anyway.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by cefire
                            IMO, I don't think it is necessarily a "right" for people to know - but as crazydriver said, what is there to lose by being "above board" as a TD and upfront about the accounting for a tournament?
                            All that said, I'll gladly post my accounting for our Ice Bowl online...
                            Not to sound dismissive of the Pretzelbowl, as that's easily one of the best bang-for-your-buck tournaments I've ever had the pleasure of playing, but the waters get a little more muddied when you have to factor in stuff like player packs, payouts, scrip, lunch, water, artist compensation, etc. Last year, at Lakewood Open, I talked to a player who, looking at the payout breakdown, was pissed off that the Am2 payout was so much smaller than the Am1 payout. I explained to him that the Am2's got a fatter player pack and their entry fee was $10 less. Even though that makes perfect sense to most of us, he was still steamed.

                            Originally posted by cefire
                            I also wonder what can be done to provide incentives for TD's to run tournaments. As it stands, like Tim mentioned, TD's who take anything back for their hard work are shamed by players (99% of which contribute nothing to a tournament) which contributes to burnout.

                            Might be a bit controversial, but what about a mandated incentive from PDGA, even if it were a very small amount. For example TD's must take $50 for running a C-tier event - they can choose to donate back if they really want but something to destigmatize TD's getting something in return.
                            I've thought about the mandate idea too, as that would certainly be something to incentivize TDs and bring in more new ones, and I wouldn't be opposed to it. I could see there being complications though with the option to donate the money back to the tournament, where TDs who didn't donate back could be facing the same kind of stigma they do now.

                            One idea I had that I think would be pretty cool would be to have a tip jar for TDs. If players felt the tournament was well run and are appreciative of all the work the TD has put into it, they can give a little somethin' back as a way of saying thanks. The only thing is that I think somebody not affiliated with the tournament should be the one who brings the jar. A TD setting out a tip jar for him or herself seems a little, for lack of a better word, tacky.

                            Heh, thinking about the notion of tipping, it strikes me how odd it is that we regularly tip a buck or two for a beer or coffee, but people get bent out of shape about TDs taking a cut for themselves when running a tournament is exponentially more work. Maybe its the whole psychological aspect of "donating" vs. "costing"?
                            Untwist thine undergarments, 'tis but a Frisbee.

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                            • #15
                              I can't think of a single tournament I've played in any sport where the players are told how much the tournament organizers made. We're already super lucky to play a sport that's as friendly and open as it is. A sport where you can call the governing body and actually talk to the people who run it. A governing body that is non profit by the way. 99.9% of courses are free to play and are installed by volunteers. I'm not sure how much the cities and states give you guys in the USA but our club owes our city over 15,000$ still for the last course we put in. Or how about the fact that our pros are so open and approachable ? If Avery sends you an email he includes a vCard with his phone number and personal address. You can go on facebook and find quite a few pros. They cool and willng to talk to fans and answer questions. Last year before our tournament I played practice rounds with Feldberg, as I'm sure some of you on the forums have played with Dave too. Also, all tournamnets are staffed by volunteers and without TDs and them the professional side of our sport wouldn't exist.

                              And after all that some people feel the need to say 'TDs shouldn't make money' , 'all tournament $s should be made public' etc. Bah. Somewhere along the line someone has to get a little something back for keepng our sport alive and well and if it's 50-500$ who gives a shit.

                              Right now the only people making any money are the pros and the people who make or sell discs.
                              My favourite putter is my driver.

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