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  • #31
    Originally posted by Ol' Bob View Post
    And the drawbacks of an indestructible disc from a marketing perspective?
    I have also heard that they take too big a chunk out of the trees they hit
    Read this ^

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    • #32
      Originally posted by DMajor View Post
      I have also heard that they take too big a chunk out of the trees they hit
      I would guess that weight and edge shape would be bigger factors in the bark removal process for any given toss. In other words, I believe if the same person repeated the same shot with the same weight and mold of DX, the difference in the chip size would be negligible. The major difference would be in how damaging it was to the disc. A soft nosed bullet does more damage than a full jacketed armor piercing round for a given velocity.
      Last edited by Ol' Bob; January 29th, 2010, 04:53 PM.
      The Corporate Empire is NOT a Constitutional Republic...
      ...but it plays one on TV.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Ol' Bob View Post
        I would guess that weight and edge shape would be bigger factors in the bark removal process for any given toss. In other words, I believe if the same person repeated the same shot with the same weight and mold of DX, the difference in the chip size would be negligible.
        While I doubt that what Dan is saying had any real bearing on the discontinuation of CE, I find your second statement there hard to swallow.

        Take a soft rubber disc and a steel disc of equal weight and throw them at a tree. The rubber one will likely crumple a fair amount when it hits the tree and absorb some of the shock, while the steel disc has a very good chance of penetrating into the tree. I know that a more elastic object applies more force since it also pushes off its target once it starts to spring back, but that does not necessarily make it more damaging to a tree.

        As for your analogy with the soft-nosed bullets vs. armor piercing: There's a very good reason why the soft-nosed bullet does more damage. The armor piercing round penetrates and pokes a tiny hole through flesh and exits out the other side, while the soft-nosed bullet penetrates into the flesh and then either diffuses or kind of rolls around inside (I'm no expert on bullet physics), causing massive internal hemorrhaging.

        We're not exactly getting discs up to the kind of velocity where that distinction is being made.
        Last edited by Parks; January 30th, 2010, 01:41 AM.
        We're at our best when it's from our hips

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        • #34
          You've got it pretty much right, Parks. The basic underlying principle behind it is the soft bullet transfers more kinetic energy to the target than a bullet that passes right on through.

          Bob, you need to add that masses are equal also.

          So what's your theory on the discontinuation of CE, Lyle? I've never heard anything solid out of Dave D's mouth, so I can't say for sure. I do think planned obsolescence had at least a minor role in the decision.

          At the very least, I'm sure the reason revolves around money. Obvious cat is obvious.
          The only thing miraculous about ICP is the fact that their children look like them...

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          • #35
            I have several things to say on this topic. The first is obvious.

            Obvious cat is obvious.
            'Weekend 4 Women':
            Saturday, June 30th - Sudoku Showdown II - FREE PDGA XC Tier
            Sunday, July 1st - Seattle SuperClassic - FREE PDGA XC Tier

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            • #36
              Second, the official reason from DD is that they "ran out" of the CE plastic and cannot get any more. Could be valid, but I'm a bit suspicious.
              'Weekend 4 Women':
              Saturday, June 30th - Sudoku Showdown II - FREE PDGA XC Tier
              Sunday, July 1st - Seattle SuperClassic - FREE PDGA XC Tier

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              • #37
                The obvious reason is fine with me. It benefits us all for them to stay in business. Plus CE is now the holy grail for all you Innova disc junkies. I have never thrown one
                Read this ^

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                • #38
                  Third, CE plastic (or some of it anyway) really IS still the most durable plastic out there. I still pay $30-50 for old CE Firebirds (the proto clear FLs) because they are worth the investment.

                  I have had my current CE Firebird in the bag for nine full years IN MY BAG now and it flies *almost* exactely the same as the first day I threw it. Although I got that original one for ~$11 back in the day, its given me 9 years of consistent flights. How many champion/Z/etc. discs would you have had to purchase during that period to get the same result?

                  Now this all hinges on the player protecting these bag staples against losing them which creates some problems because I have to bring a cheapo champ or Xcal for water shots etc.
                  'Weekend 4 Women':
                  Saturday, June 30th - Sudoku Showdown II - FREE PDGA XC Tier
                  Sunday, July 1st - Seattle SuperClassic - FREE PDGA XC Tier

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by sillybizz View Post
                    Well it's hard to not think that when they come out with crap like R-Pro.

                    WORST PLASTIC EVER!
                    Hey now... I love my r-pro putter... not sure why they'd make driver's out of it, tho...
                    "'There are two mantras.,' Bernard said, 'Yum and yuk. Mine is yum.'"
                    Tom Robbins, Still Life With Woodpecker

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by sillybizz View Post
                      Well it's hard to not think that when they come out with crap like R-Pro.

                      WORST PLASTIC EVER!
                      Lastly, I think we can all agree that the really early Gateway stuff was the worst plastic ever.
                      'Weekend 4 Women':
                      Saturday, June 30th - Sudoku Showdown II - FREE PDGA XC Tier
                      Sunday, July 1st - Seattle SuperClassic - FREE PDGA XC Tier

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                      • #41
                        I don't have a theory on the discontinuation, but I've seen some ideas that seem to carry more merit.

                        First, let's assume that Innova stopped production of CE because it was too durable. Innova now benefits by selling the less durable Champion plastic for the same price which needs to be replaced more often and lets also assume that it costs the same or less to produce.

                        This plastic was/is in high demand. What's stopping other manufacturer from gaining market share by getting the CE plastic? Its possible that the distributor couldn't ship to companies in Michigan or Missouri, but Innova had production facilities in California and Ontario (though I'm not sure which one was used or if both were used in the CE era). Its also possible that a company like Gateway or Discraft doesn't have the purchasing power to get the CE plastic in large enough quantities to make it price competitive.

                        Given demand for CE plastic, a more shrewd business decision would be for Innova to do limited runs of CE for higher prices. People would pay a high premium for modern day drivers in CE. Right now Innova is not making any money off the CE market where people are buying Teebirds for $100.

                        For a CE price point of say, $30 dollars retail, a Champion disc would have to be replaced at least twice as much as a CE disc for it not to make sense to release runs of CE at a premium. Even if a CE disc is twice as durable as Champion, it will be replaced more often than half as often due to lost discs, buying new releases/different discs, buying backups, etc. Not to mention, that once a disc is beat into where one person doesn't want to use it, that is the money spot for a different player. With less durable discs, Innova still isn't selling discs to that person who buying beat discs on the secondary market.

                        This is all somewhat plausible, but I think there are better explanations.

                        I've heard a few things. I've heard that the CE discs were more difficult to mold properly and ended up with a lot of regrinds/bad runs that couldn't be sold. This could make it prohibitively expensive to run CE, especially since it is wasting production time for other discs which is valuable. I've also heard that the price went up to the point where it wasn't worth buying CE over Champion. They almost discontinued Pro plastic for this very reason, and it is NOT durable in the least. The last thing that I've heard that could make sense is that the source changed the plastic which made it cheaper or better for all the other companies buying the plastic, but it made it not viable for discs. This makes sense because Innova is a very small buyer of plastic compared to many other companies right now. They would have almost no influence on the plastic source.

                        I'm not sure which of these, if any, is true, but it goes beyond "zomg the CE discs were too durable."
                        We're at our best when it's from our hips

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                        • #42
                          Just throw Discraft and don't worry about it.
                          Sometimes my mind boggles. It's so deep my mind actually boggles.

                          ~ Cyndi Lauper ~

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                          • #43
                            Boo!!! Although you will be happy to know that a Z-Cyclone will be coming with me to Shelton.
                            'Weekend 4 Women':
                            Saturday, June 30th - Sudoku Showdown II - FREE PDGA XC Tier
                            Sunday, July 1st - Seattle SuperClassic - FREE PDGA XC Tier

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Parks View Post
                              Its possible that the distributor couldn't ship to companies in Michigan or Missouri, but Innova had production facilities in California and Ontario (though I'm not sure which one was used or if both were used in the CE era).."
                              Ontario is in California
                              Read this ^

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                              • #45
                                Ontario Cat is also in California
                                'Weekend 4 Women':
                                Saturday, June 30th - Sudoku Showdown II - FREE PDGA XC Tier
                                Sunday, July 1st - Seattle SuperClassic - FREE PDGA XC Tier

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