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  • #61
    FWIW, I find higher speed/wider rim discs to be the squirreliest, most nose angle sensitive discs, regardless of manufacturer. I'd have a lot more faith in a Teebird or XL following my intended line than a Destroyer or Force. I do think Discraft is more consistent from run to run, but that being said, my FLX Surge was one of the most unpredictable discs I've ever had.
    Untwist thine undergarments, 'tis but a Frisbee.

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    • #62
      Tim is right that wider rim discs are generally more nose angle sensitive. Also, understable discs tend to get squirrely as they beat in.

      Tyvek, what Innova discs were you throwing that you found unpredictable and what Discraft discs are you throwing now?

      Just making sure we're talking apples to apples. Comparing a beat Pro Orc's predictability to a Z Predator's predictability isn't really the same thing. Same with comparing a beat Surge SS to a Champ Firebird.
      We're at our best when it's from our hips

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Parks View Post
        Tim is right that wider rim discs are generally more nose angle sensitive. Also, understable discs tend to get squirrely as they beat in.

        Tyvek, what Innova discs were you throwing that you found unpredictable and what Discraft discs are you throwing now?

        Just making sure we're talking apples to apples. Comparing a beat Pro Orc's predictability to a Z Predator's predictability isn't really the same thing. Same with comparing a beat Surge SS to a Champ Firebird.

        the discs i was having issues with was a kc pro Roc (after being thrown for around 9 months), a champion Wraith, and a champion starfire. my biggest issue was with the Roc. the rest of my discs at that time were ok. my T-bird was my most dependable disc! and it is still in my bag because i havent found a suitable replacement for it yet.

        here is what i currently carry in my bag.
        DGA rogue (discraft plastic)
        Z Crush
        2 ESP pulses
        Z avenger
        ESP avenger ss
        Z Reaper
        Z Xpress (possible replacment for the Tbird)
        Champion Tbird
        Z Wasp
        Z Buzzz
        ESP Buzzz
        3 Quest AT crossfire putters.
        Team HOSER:dancing:
        Team OLY:cheerleader:
        Team Meteor

        "Oh man, my burps are giving me whiplash"

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        • #64
          Try the Z Talon in place of the Teebird maybe?

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          • #65
            If you are throwing a Champ Wraith and a Champ Starfire, you need about 370+ feet of power to make them fly correctly. A Wraith is supposed to be a turnover distance driver, and a Starfire is supposed to be a long, straight disc with a reliable fade

            You may not have the power to correctly throw these discs. The Pulse would fall into this category too. Without the right power, they are meathooks unless you add a bunch of off-axis torque to compensate. This is an unpredictable way to throw a disc unless you know how to use it wisely like the Pros do.

            The Teebird is one of the most dependable discs in the game, and it is a straight disc with reliable fade for almost all power levels. I wouldn't replace it with anything from Discraft. Discraft used to make a good Teebird competitor called the X2, but they discontinued it because it didn't sell despite being a great disc.

            I bet your problem is less Innova vs. Discraft rather than choosing the right discs for your game.
            We're at our best when it's from our hips

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Parks View Post
              If you are throwing a Champ Wraith and a Champ Starfire, you need about 370+ feet of power to make them fly correctly. A Wraith is supposed to be a turnover distance driver, and a Starfire is supposed to be a long, straight disc with a reliable fade

              You may not have the power to correctly throw these discs. The Pulse would fall into this category too. Without the right power, they are meathooks unless you add a bunch of off-axis torque to compensate. This is an unpredictable way to throw a disc unless you know how to use it wisely like the Pros do.

              The Teebird is one of the most dependable discs in the game, and it is a straight disc with reliable fade for almost all power levels. I wouldn't replace it with anything from Discraft. Discraft used to make a good Teebird competitor called the X2, but they discontinued it because it didn't sell despite being a great disc.


              Hi Parks,

              i want to thank you for the information you gave me. it seems that you are really trying to be helpful instead of just opinionated and i appreciate that.


              Originally posted by Parks View Post
              I bet your problem is less Innova vs. Discraft rather than choosing the right discs for your game.
              i want to clear this up just a little. I dont have any problems with the discs that Innova makes. there are some molds that are Fantastic discs and i really miss them. my problem with Innova is the plastic that they use in their discs. it is always changing from run to run. my frustration is "why cant they just stick to one formula per plastic???" i mean you take a KC 10X Roc and it is a different blend of plastic than the KC12X Roc. WHY! why cant they just have one blend of plastic for all KC Pro discs?
              then there is the Boss. a First run boss is more understable than a felberg signature Boss. why? Innova once had what some say is the "perfect" plastic, the CE plastic. why cant they just make all "champion" discs out of CE plastic, and stop changing it? i tell you if innova would stop messing about with different plastic blends from run to run and just find the best blend and stick with it i would probably throw their discs again.


              that is my BIG and only frustration with Innova. and after reading the "ask Dave" thread on the PDGA discusion board it doesnt give me any comfort at all. he even told people that one run of disc is not going to be like another run! if the president of the company doesnt seem to care about consistancy in his plastic, then i dont want to support them.
              Discraft does not change blends of plastic. they have found great plastic and they stick with it. that means that a new buzzz made 3 years ago will fly the exact same way that a new buzzz made today will straight off the shelf. i wish Discraft had some different molds, but the consistancy in their plastic is why i support them.


              sorry this is so long and sorry to have taken this thread so far off the original topic.
              Team HOSER:dancing:
              Team OLY:cheerleader:
              Team Meteor

              "Oh man, my burps are giving me whiplash"

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              • #67
                Out of curiosity... how do you know that Discraft never changes their plastic?
                ďI believe I can hit 18 greens, hit every fairway, you know ó Vision 54, which means you birdie every hole, thatís in the back of my mind. I want to putt better, chip better. That day when I hit 18 greens and one putt, Iíll know Iím a complete golfer. Will that ever happen? Iím not sure, but itís possible. The 54 vision is always in the back of my mind.Ē
                ~Annika SŲrenstam

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                • #68
                  Tastes great.





















































                  Less filing.
                  The Corporate Empire is NOT a Constitutional Republic...
                  ...but it plays one on TV.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Sam View Post
                    Out of curiosity... how do you know that Discraft never changes their plastic?
                    Of course they do....Just not nearly as often as Innova HAS too.

                    Reason being is that in "reality" Innova makes & sells SO MANY more discs than Discraft that it is difficult to find Supplies to meet the demand.

                    Most people would be SHOCKED to know the actual numbers.

                    Innova actually sells more than 2 to 1 of ALL OTHER manufacturers COMBINED.


                    CE went away because it just could be obtained anymore.......

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by TYVEK View Post
                      Discraft does not change blends of plastic.
                      I agree with you that manufacturers need more consistency in their plastics and molding processes.

                      However, Discraft DOES change their blends.

                      Don't take my word for it. Check it out for yourself.

                      I'll use the Predator as an example since that is a disc I throw and am very familiar with.

                      Find a first run ESP Predator. They are all pretty stiff. Now find any other ESP Predator, and they are pretty flexy. It feels like they blended some FLX into the mix.

                      Find an opaque, pearly Z Predator, then a transparent one. They definitely feel very different. This could be a different blend, or just a different amount of the weighting agent. Either way, they are not a consistent plastic from disc to disc.

                      There are older Predators that definitely have a different Z blend. It is opaque and not glossy at all like most current Z. It looks like Star or ESP and feels like grippy CE plastic, though not quite as durable. This stuff is great, but its yet another definite blend of Z.

                      Some Z Predators have a dome so sunken and flat that it pulls the rim so tight that it flies very overstable, though that just may be a cooling difference rather than a different plastic blend.

                      These variations are very similar to the ones you see in KC Pro Roc runs.

                      I have heard that first run Predators are actually Tsunamis or another slightly less stable Predator, so even Discraft changes molds without renaming discs.

                      The bottom line: No manufacturer makes 100% consistent plastic blends, and all manufacturers will have some flight variation within the same molds. They test new blends and new techniques in order to improve their discs, and most advances in disc technologies have happened through experimentation.

                      The even more bottomer line: its all in your head if you think one manufacturer always makes consistent discs and others do not. Throw discs, not brands
                      We're at our best when it's from our hips

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by TYVEK View Post
                        Hi Parks,

                        that is my BIG and only frustration with Innova. and after reading the "ask Dave" thread on the PDGA discusion board it doesnt give me any comfort at all. he even told people that one run of disc is not going to be like another run! if the president of the company doesnt seem to care about consistancy in his plastic, then i dont want to support them.

                        sorry this is so long and sorry to have taken this thread so far off the original topic.

                        Different "runs" of ANY disc will change depending on the exact conditions.
                        Temp., Humidity, etc all play a factor in how a specific "run" ends up.

                        How fast did it cool...How Hot was the plastic/mold upon injection of the plastic.

                        Until Discs are made in "Clean Rooms" under controlled conditions they will NEVER be consistant, regardless of the manufacturer.

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                        • #72
                          I tried to force myself to use Discraft for quite a while. I couldn't get the distance out of it that I could out of Innova discs. Or Quest discs for that matter. I have more quest discs in my bag than I do Discraft. For some reason I just can't get discraft to do what I want. The Wasp I love. The Z Talon I want to love, but I can't get the distance out of it, it just turns too soon and I have a pretty good wrist flick .. or at least i did before I hurt my shoulder. I might put together a bag of only discraft and force myself to use them for a month and see how it works, but when it comes down to taking some discs out of my bag it always seems to be the Discraft discs that go for some reason. I have no reason to be partial except for experience, I have no ties to either company and I don't read DG magazines or industry hype or anything.

                          It seems there is always an Innova equivalent that I can throw farther and more consistent... dunno why.

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                          • #73
                            Wow. Everybody getting so worked up over mid-range discs. I always thought it was the putters we should be getting all worked up over.

                            Anyway, since everyone else is slingin' mud in this one, I want to join in...

                            Scott Papa = loyal to Discraft. Makes sense. He's sponsored by them.

                            Sam = loyal to Innova. Makes less sense. He's not sponsored by them. (Seems kind of like pledging loyalty to a higher power to me - viewed as pointless by some. Curious.)

                            More on the current topic, though, I love me a Buzzz. I have seven. Tried the Rocs for awhile, but never found one that worked for me. I don't fault the Roc for that, it just doesn't work for my game. Ok. Instead of the Wasp, I tend to use the Drone. I can get a Buzzz to do most anything that a Wasp can (for me), but the Drone works when I need a hard fade.

                            Overall, I carry a mixed bag of manufacturers. Discraft, Innova, Gateway, and Lightning. Each disc that I carry serves its purpose for me, and I feel no loyalty to one company over another. All I am looking for is a disc that feels good in my hands, one that I can throw consistently, and one that hopefully won't be discontinued anytime soon (in case I lose said disc in the murky waters of Trojan, or under a fern at the Mud).

                            If I were ever able to get good enough at this sport (let's not kid ourselves, that will never happen) to get sponsored, I would hope to play for Gateway. Allowing players to use a mixed bag? Awesome.

                            Awaiting the arrival of mud - hopefully its lucky...

                            ~Z
                            TROJAN NATION: zippyboy, bishop, wiseguy, jasonrocksout, Dan N., Ol' Bob, The Mentor, chris7graham, radsnowsurfer, ChUcK, J-Man, Keys, Over The Hill Bob, Tennesee, Haley, Jeep4x420, Scott Hill, JubJub, Jim Anderson, JLewis, Z-Man, Greg the Clown, Marcus B., Treelove, Trozzle, Brillo, D-Walk, my beloved (Amy), Tim, Leland (my dad), Bro, Peter, Michael, and Rolly. Anybody else?

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                            • #74
                              Everyone knows I'm partial to Discraft, but that's me, and my game. I promote using any disc that works for your game regardless of manufacturer. But, I will throw a curve this threads way; what weights are you throwing? Chances are most folks all buy into the "heavier is better," but Parks is right, some molds need lots of D to fly their intended line. However, if you want to lower that number, cut some weight. Personally I believe you are throwing too many molds. The cool and fun part of this whole discussion is trying to find the right combination of molds and weights means you'll be on the course with purpose, so have fun finding the combinations that work for you.
                              GO TEAM OLY!
                              J
                              Last edited by JMan; April 10th, 2009, 05:50 AM. Reason: to ad an 's'
                              educate your thinking

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by zippyboy View Post

                                If I were ever able to get good enough at this sport (let's not kid ourselves, that will never happen) to get sponsored, I would hope to play for Gateway. Allowing players to use a mixed bag? Awesome.

                                ~Z

                                Hey Zippy,

                                there is some hope for you! a guy here in olympia just received a partial sponsorship from gateway, and he just moved up to the advanced division this year and has a player rating under 900. he was telling me that Dave from gateway really wants to start making an impact in the northwest and is looking for people interested in throwing their plastic. So you should give Dave Mccormack a call and see if you can get in on it.
                                Team HOSER:dancing:
                                Team OLY:cheerleader:
                                Team Meteor

                                "Oh man, my burps are giving me whiplash"

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