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  • which Roc?

    which Roc mold is the most over stable?
    and/or has the most fade (if you prefer)
    and star plastic would add to that, I assume, correct?

    I have waded through this for a while and now my head hurts

  • #2
    Champion Roc's seem to be the most overstable.
    "Honest work is for the downtrodden and the Polish"
    Cleveland Brown

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    • #3
      Originally posted by matt View Post
      which Roc mold is the most over stable?
      and/or has the most fade (if you prefer)
      and star plastic would add to that, I assume, correct?

      I have waded through this for a while and now my head hurts
      From Three Putt over at DGCR:

      Roc history 101, professor Three Putt shall be teaching this subject...

      The original disc that was called a Roc was a 21.2 cm diameter disc that came out in '87. It was essentially an Aviar XD with a big bead. It was for sale for a short time and discontinued, replaced with a 21.7 cm diameter disc that was also called a Roc. In 1995, the original 21.2 cm disc was re-released under the name "Classic Roc." So the small diameter disc has the word "Roc" in the name, but that is not what we are talking about when we say "Roc."

      When we say "Roc" we mean the 21.7 cm diameter disc that came out in '88ish. When this first Roc was tooled, Innova did not have a plant and outsourced all the injection molding. They had a P.O. Box in San Marino, CA, so the disc said "San Marino" in the tooling on the underside of the disc.

      This "San Marino" Roc (which was never called that at the time) was a great disc. At the time it was one of the longest discs on the market. It would start out a bit overstable but soon beat into a long, straight disc with a slight predictable fade that didn't usually turn over into a headwind. Just a great disc. Back in the early 90's, they were ubiquitous. Everybody threw one. It was just the best disc around.

      In the early 90's Innova established a plant in Ontario, CA and started doing all the injection molding in house. Around '94 the Roc mold was shot. You can't have a lot of control over the conditions a mold is used in when you outsource, and the Roc was so popular that they made a lot of runs of it. That mold became distorted and the discs did not come out right, so a new Roc mold was made. Since the plant was in Ontario, CA at that time, the new Roc said "Ontario" in the tooling.

      The Ontario Roc was the disc that ruined the Roc. Stable out of the box, it could not handle the torque that the San Marino could and tended to flip. Throwing one into the wind was close to a religious experience, as it involved a lot of praying. It was really more like a longer Shark than the San Marino Roc.

      At the same time that the Ontario mold came out, Innova released some really cruddy cheap plastic. Pretty much all of the disc would warp or deform in some way. When you bought discs at this time, you could tell the serious players becasue they would flip through the whole stack of discs hoping to find an old run in the stack. The combination of the bad Ontario Roc mold and the bad plastic resulted in a lot of people throwing Discraft. Other people horded San Marino Rocs, making it one of the early valuable discs.

      Innova soon got back on their A game and improved their plastic. They also closed the Ontario plant and moved to Rancho Cucamonga, CA. In '97 they again changed the Roc mold, but this time they got it right. The new disc was the current "Rancho" Roc, so called becasue it says "Rancho Cucamonga" in the underside tooling.

      The Rancho Roc is the most overstable of the three 21.7 cm diameter Rocs. You can torque the Hell out of one and not flip it. It is great into the wind. It has a more pronounced fade than a San Marino, but all in all it is a very dependable, predictable disc. It's still the king of the mid-range discs.

      None of the various plastic lines or full-color stamps came around until AFTER the Rancho Roc was in production. As a result, all KC Pro Rocs are made from the Rancho mold. All of the Ching Rocs are made from the Rancho mold. All of the Super Rocs and SE Rocs are made from the Racho mold. All of the USDGC Rocs up until a few years ago were Rancho Rocs. They are all the same mold with different plastics

      Now, here is where it gets a bit confusing. The Ontario Roc is a good disc in combination with a San Marino or Rancho Roc, it's just not stable enough to use on it's own. After awhile people started looking for Ontarios to use as a turnover mid, and ebay started burning up with $50 Ontario Rocs. San Marino Rocs had been selling for that much for a long time.

      New technology makes it easier to re-create a mold now that it was in '94, so Innova just re-created the Ontario mold in '07 and re-released Ontario Rocs in the CFR program. Then last year they re-created the San Marino mold and re-released it in the CFR program. So now if you really need and Ontario or San Marino you can get one and the extra money goes to a tournament purse, not some disc collectors pocket. They have also run some of the collector USDGC Rocs in the Ontario and San Marino mold.

      However, the Rocs that you are going to find in general release-the stock stamped DX Roc and KC Rocs-are all still Rancho Rocs.
      Sometimes my mind boggles. It's so deep my mind actually boggles.

      ~ Cyndi Lauper ~

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      • #4
        Just in case you're too lazy to read:

        Most overstable:

        Rancho>San Marino>Ontario

        Look underneath the disc to find the tooling and see where it came from and that's what Roc you are getting. OR you could do what smart players do and throw a Buzzz. :|
        Sometimes my mind boggles. It's so deep my mind actually boggles.

        ~ Cyndi Lauper ~

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        • #5
          Originally posted by sillybizz View Post
          OR you could do what smart players do and throw a Buzzz. :|
          Consider that Buzzzes are less stable than Rocs, that makes little sense given OP's question.

          Champ, Star, and KC Pro plastic Rocs will be more overstable than DX Rocs (in that order), and the mold stability has already been listed above.
          We're at our best when it's from our hips

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          • #6
            Thanks, that was some good reading
            I have a 179 z buzzzz and a 171? kc pro roc

            But I am kind of looking for my wife
            She has a stingray and a shark, but now I think she needs something a little heavier, and a little bit more overstable

            And I have been looking at some vipers or maybe a drone for myself (comments/suggestions. Please)

            Since I have got a "stupid question/obvious" thread started,
            What is CE plastic?

            Comment


            • #7
              its Champion Edition plastic, its the old style champion plastic from innova. they discontinued that blend of plastic because of various reasons.
              Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up to the roof and gets stuck - George Carlin

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              • #8
                Originally posted by matt View Post
                Thanks, that was some good reading


                Since I have got a "stupid question/obvious" thread started,
                What is CE plastic?

                the "Roc" never had a "TRUE" run of "CE" "Champion Edition"....the 01,02 runs of USDGC Roc's would be the only runs that come close to that blend of plastic, with the 01 being the HOLY GRAIL and also more stable than the 02.
                Last edited by NWDiscer; August 8th, 2012, 07:35 AM.
                "In Discatarianism We Trust"

                :cheers:

                :cool:sigpic

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by matt View Post
                  Thanks, that was some good reading
                  I have a 179 z buzzzz and a 171? kc pro roc

                  But I am kind of looking for my wife
                  She has a stingray and a shark, but now I think she needs something a little heavier, and a little bit more overstable


                  is she making the stingray/shark go to the right to much?

                  try having her lower the edge of the disc. ie if throwing it flat at 9 O'clock try 8 or even 7 the disc will still get flat, but not turn over to the right so much.
                  "In Discatarianism We Trust"

                  :cheers:

                  :cool:sigpic

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There is also a "new" Plastic type Roc coming out....



                    http://proshop.innovadiscs.com/kc-pr...est-black.html


                    Shawn

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by NWDiscer View Post
                      is she making the stingray/shark go to the right to much?

                      try having her lower the edge of the disc. ie if throwing it flat at 9 O'clock try 8 or even 7 the disc will still get flat, but not turn over to the right so much.
                      her shark runs pretty straight and the stingray does turn a little for her

                      she/we are both still working on being consistent when we throw
                      so im trying to not make too many adjustments on her/the throwing at this point

                      and using different discs for the flight characteristics needed

                      once I feel like she/we are throwing more consistently then I can show her how to change the flight of the disc by the way she throws it

                      she understands how to tip it up/down for large flight adj.
                      but we/she are trying to stay away from minor adjustments at this point

                      plus this way she is learning about the different types of discs

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        A softer blend of kc pro roc has already been released stamped with 11x. Discgolfvalues.com sales them and they are super nice and super grippy and throw pretty well for a roc. They do wear faster than the normal 11x but not as fast as dx. I bought some of those about 2 years ago and someone recently bought them up from me.

                        As for the most overstable roc.......the 2001 is the only true ce plastic and is pretty overstable. The only ones that would come close and/or beat it overstable wise is the battle glow roc from 2004, the 2005 flat kenny 4x glow rocs and maybe the 2006 hole 7 glow rocs. I have not personally tested one, but i have a sneaky feeling that the 2006 star baby roc could be overstable as well.
                        WHEN I GROW UP I WANT TO BE A SPIDER BITE.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by matt View Post
                          thanks, that was some good reading
                          i have a 179 z buzzzz and a 171? Kc pro roc

                          but i am kind of looking for my wife
                          she has a stingray and a shark, but now i think she needs something a little heavier, and a little bit more overstable

                          and i have been looking at some vipers or maybe a drone for myself (comments/suggestions. Please)

                          since i have got a "stupid question/obvious" thread started,
                          what is ce plastic?
                          vipers are super silly overstable especially the champion ones. The drone is an awesome midrange that will fight any wind out there. I personally throw the elite z drone and will have it in the bag forever. I think the esp flx drone may be even more overstable than the elite z.
                          WHEN I GROW UP I WANT TO BE A SPIDER BITE.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SPIDER-DAN View Post
                            vipers are super silly overstable especially the champion ones. The drone is an awesome midrange that will fight any wind out there. I personally throw the elite z drone and will have it in the bag forever. I think the esp flx drone may be even more overstable than the elite z.
                            You'd be correct in the thinking of FLX Drones being more overstable then the Z. The only real difference is that the Z seems to penetrate forward during it's fade and the FLX seems to just drop from the sky.
                            "Honest work is for the downtrodden and the Polish"
                            Cleveland Brown

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by matt View Post
                              Thanks, that was some good reading
                              I have a 179 z buzzzz and a 171? kc pro roc

                              But I am kind of looking for my wife
                              She has a stingray and a shark, but now I think she needs something a little heavier, and a little bit more overstable
                              Honestly, have her try your Buzzz and your Roc. Either one of those should be fine as an overstable mid for her.
                              We're at our best when it's from our hips

                              Comment

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