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  • #46
    Sam? We need a "like" button on this site! posts 45 and 44 qualify.
    Sometimes my mind boggles. It's so deep my mind actually boggles.

    ~ Cyndi Lauper ~

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    • #47
      WHAT? CSI is splitting weekends, crazy.
      Click here

      Challenge disc golf

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      • #48
        As far as I know Guy and I am the only TD's to offer on the tee signs the avg Score for 5 divisions and how each holes is handicapped (14,17,18 being hardest 1,5,10 being easiest) since 2006

        Originally posted by Skookum View Post
        First of all the little barb about us MC boy whining. I don't remember saying anything about my play or our performance because this issues has nothing to do with that. I take pride in stepping back from my skill level (sub 900) to look at these thing objectively. I use the math and methods provided by the PDGA to determine the relative strengths and weakness of individual holes and courses. I do not rely on my gut or my score (because i'm terrible). I assure you as a "designer" (I use that term loosely) we did not set par, we created it. We modified our holes till they hit our desired average strokes based on 1000 rated player (our at least tried our best). .

        I was speaking about myself when I said "whining" and it was about my play not the course layout or what par is. Yes, (As you are designing your holes) Par is what you make it and based on whatever criteria you choose to employ. When SeaTac was built the pDGA criteria was not available. Not that it's a bible... I am just not sure how we ever survived before 2005

        Originally posted by Skookum View Post
        As far as handicapping goes, it had zero bearing on the SSA calculations for the event. Handicapping only helps to determine the winner between to players it's does not affect their ability to play (although we may tie one of Crabtrees arms behind his back).
        ...From a competitive stand point if we want to be taken seriously things like using "par" as word that means the same thing regardless of what course you happen to be standing on at the moment is essential. If we are talking about just going and have fun.... well we wouldn't be having this conversation right now, we'd be golfing.
        Handicapping makes it so two different skill levels can play against each other and have the scores be somewhat close at the end. And Yes both groups are equally as rabid when it comes to competition

        My suggestion for kyle is make him play either super class or lids

        Side note to play in a P.G.A. event you need to be a scratch (par) or better player

        Originally posted by Skookum View Post
        Your ball golf points are a little off. The pars in ball golf are created by a professional designer who crafts the course so that Pro golfers from Blue tee pad score an average that meets the par. Many ball golf course have different pars on the same hole (usually from the womans tees).

        You are right ball golfer don't whine about par because the sport is mature enough after all these years that things like par are UNIFORM between courses. A par 4 on this course is equivalent to a par 4 on that course. Not, "Well on our course we call it a par 3" I wonder though if there was a golf course that had a 600 yard par three would player complain? I will have to always wonder because holes like that don't exist, at least not on PGA level courses.

        Why even bring ball golf into this as it really speaks more to my points than yours. They use math and science to create balance courses and OMG what is the first question two golfer ask each other when they meet? What is your handicap? As a group they are way more plugged into that stuff than we are.
        .
        The only difference between us and Fazio, Nicklaus or Ross design is someone paid them to build it. Either group tries to design something that is
        Feasible, aesthetically pleasing and fits the terrain. the bigger budgets actually move dirt around.

        Actually handicap is #3
        What the course record? is #1
        and
        Where is the first tee is #2

        The variance you speak of is more likely addressed by the type of Ball golf course and it's not more then 2-3 strokes.

        Pitch and Putt:
        1. Par threes
        2. and at the longest 250 yds
        3. normally only 9 holes 2000 yds.
        4. one set of tees.
        5. pretty simple greens
        6. no rough
        7. no hazards
        8. 3-4 clubs + putter
        9. Walked



        Executive:
        1. Either 9 or 18
        2. ]maybe one 5* and even number of 3's and 4's (*for 9 maybe two 5's for 18) Longest hole (either 4 or 5) 400 YDS.
        3. Built by design to have fast play.
        4. 9 as little as 2700 to 6000 for 18.
        5. Two sets of tees
        6. maybe tougher greens to lengthen the course
        7. a few hazards.
        8. moderate rough
        9. Full bag of irons and maybe a 3 or 4 wood.
        10. Walk or ride


        Municipal:
        1. Full length 6800+
        2. Even number of 3's,4's and 5's on each side. usually one 5 and three 3 the rest 4.
        3. Multiple tees and distances but still same par/hole.
        4. Tough greens
        5. plenty of hazards
        6. plenty of rough
        7. Full bag
        8. Walk or ride


        * Someday's Tees are back, some days the move up one or two spots (normally determined only by maintenance issues IE heavy play)

        Resort: Same as Municipal but in a better location and higher fees. I take shoes, gloves, balls and tees. I rent clubs Definitely ride

        T.P.C. Tournament Players Club or P.G.A. type courses
        1. Monster 3's
        2. once in awhile a short 5 (for members) is made into a long 4 for the touring pros.
        3. Hardest greens
        4. hazards force players to work around them.
        5. Rough that covers your shoes
        6. Full bag
        7. Definitely ride
        rewindb.com

        Comment


        • #49
          Since Im who I am, can I have it set to par 6? Ferguson is a pretty tough course for me. Youve all seen me throw, so I think I can reasonably ask for this. What do you say Tom?

          Comment


          • #50
            Damn Jesse, you're rated higher than I am! If you get par 6 then I get par 6 1/2. This is what we need more 1/2 stroke pars.
            Sometimes my mind boggles. It's so deep my mind actually boggles.

            ~ Cyndi Lauper ~

            Comment


            • #51
              Wheee! It has been forever since I have posted on any thread and this one is the winner.

              I am a total supporter of courses being labeled to what a par should truly be (and I will get it out of the way and say that to me, SeaTac is NOT a par 54 course but either a par 59 or 60, I don't know the stats well enough). I have to say that I am a fan of this because I want to see course designers starting to think about designing holes that take two or three shots to reach the "green". If a course has the room, then gone should be the days of thinking about how to design yet another hole that is reachable off the drive. I love holes that take great drives and excellent second (and sometimes third) shots to give the person a look at the basket. To me, this is where the fun really is.

              Here is where I get to say "super huge kudos" to the group that painstakingly designed the excellent course we know as Shelton Springs. With true par 4 and par 5 holes, this course rocks. Why are they true par 4 and 5? Because it takes two or three quality shots to reach the basket and give you birdie opportunities. Can you eagle the par 4's and 5's? Sure, but it isn't easy.

              I am just trying to say that if we have room at parks (like SeaTac and Shelton Springs) there is no reason not to try and design holes that are not reachable in one shot. They don't need to be 700 feet to be par 4 (I played a par 4 at Highbridge that was about 250', and a legitimate par 4) but they need to be designed to be a hole that will take two well executed shots to reach and is basically unreachable in one. It can be done.

              As a last note for SeaTac, I actually walked the course with Herm when he was still about and the course was in it's early incantation. He asked me to come out to design a second set of teepads like I had at NAD to utilize the same fairways, yet totally change the shots. If these had been put in, there would have been two layouts at SeaTac using the same design, but neither of them would have been the course that is played now. All of the tees that are in use now would still be used, but some for the "easy course" and some for the "hard course". The thought was to have a more friendly par 3 type of course and also a totally challenging par ? course. I still wish to this day that those pads could have gone in.....

              Also, he asked about the course itself and changes that I would make if I could. If anyone remembers the old course, holes 14 and 16 use to be shorter. They were the old, boring "3.5" type of holes where if you threw a drive that went 250' or 400', you were still getting a three with a basic upshot. But once the pins were moved back, now that short drive either takes the thought of a three out, or you must make a miraculous shot/putt to still get a three. But those holes are now definite par 4 holes thanks to some added distance. I'm not saying that "distance equal better" but it did work for those holes. We also talked about the possibility of clearing much more (yes, much more) behind pin 12 and trying to get to a par 5 on that hole..........

              So while I enjoy deuce or die courses (RIP Riverside Red) I still love the challenge, both mentally and physically, of courses that have par 4 and 5 holes. Long live Shelton Springs and SeaTac (and maybe even Dalaiwood in the long setting, heeheehee)

              Later,
              Papa
              Team Discraft
              Instructional Editor DiscGolfer Magazine

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by papatart View Post
                Wheee! It has been forever since I have posted on any thread and this one is the winner.

                I am a total supporter of courses being labeled to what a par should truly be (and I will get it out of the way and say that to me, SeaTac is NOT a par 54 course but either a par 59 or 60, I don't know the stats well enough). I have to say that I am a fan of this because I want to see course designers starting to think about designing holes that take two or three shots to reach the "green". If a course has the room, then gone should be the days of thinking about how to design yet another hole that is reachable off the drive. I love holes that take great drives and excellent second (and sometimes third) shots to give the person a look at the basket. To me, this is where the fun really is.

                Here is where I get to say "super huge kudos" to the group that painstakingly designed the excellent course we know as Shelton Springs. With true par 4 and par 5 holes, this course rocks. Why are they true par 4 and 5? Because it takes two or three quality shots to reach the basket and give you birdie opportunities. Can you eagle the par 4's and 5's? Sure, but it isn't easy.

                I am just trying to say that if we have room at parks (like SeaTac and Shelton Springs) there is no reason not to try and design holes that are not reachable in one shot. They don't need to be 700 feet to be par 4 (I played a par 4 at Highbridge that was about 250', and a legitimate par 4) but they need to be designed to be a hole that will take two well executed shots to reach and is basically unreachable in one. It can be done.

                As a last note for SeaTac, I actually walked the course with Herm when he was still about and the course was in it's early incantation. He asked me to come out to design a second set of teepads like I had at NAD to utilize the same fairways, yet totally change the shots. If these had been put in, there would have been two layouts at SeaTac using the same design, but neither of them would have been the course that is played now. All of the tees that are in use now would still be used, but some for the "easy course" and some for the "hard course". The thought was to have a more friendly par 3 type of course and also a totally challenging par ? course. I still wish to this day that those pads could have gone in.....

                Also, he asked about the course itself and changes that I would make if I could. If anyone remembers the old course, holes 14 and 16 use to be shorter. They were the old, boring "3.5" type of holes where if you threw a drive that went 250' or 400', you were still getting a three with a basic upshot. But once the pins were moved back, now that short drive either takes the thought of a three out, or you must make a miraculous shot/putt to still get a three. But those holes are now definite par 4 holes thanks to some added distance. I'm not saying that "distance equal better" but it did work for those holes. We also talked about the possibility of clearing much more (yes, much more) behind pin 12 and trying to get to a par 5 on that hole..........

                So while I enjoy deuce or die courses (RIP Riverside Red) I still love the challenge, both mentally and physically, of courses that have par 4 and 5 holes. Long live Shelton Springs and SeaTac (and maybe even Dalaiwood in the long setting, heeheehee)

                Later,
                Papa


                How dare you disagree with Jubmeister. What the hell do YOU know anyway?


                Heh. Kidding. I agree completely.
                "You won't like me when I am angry, because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources". - The Credible Hulk

                Comment


                • #53
                  My favorite is when someone just has to know what the "par" is on a particular hole before teeing off, cause it determines how they play the hole i.e. how risky they have to be. I have seen this happen many times. In tournaments. A lot of times this occurs on a hole that has traditionally been "called" a par 3 cause that was the only option when the course went in but now some TDs change the hole par for a tournament. One example from down here where this happens all the time is on the long hole at Timber (the hole formerly known as #17). Invariably when we get to the tee someone says,

                  "$h^& does anyone know if they called this a 3 or a 4 today?"

                  "Uh not sure. I don't think it matters really, there are gonna be more 4's than 3's for sure."

                  Momentary silence, mostly blank stare (presumably thinking about the "doesn't matter" part).

                  "Crap, does the scorecard say?"

                  "No"

                  "Well I'm just gonna assume its a 3 then, and bomb my drive down past the pole." Throw OB.

                  OR

                  "Well I gotta keep this bogey free round growing." Throw OB

                  Then when the hole is done, the icing on the cake (as far as comedic value goes):

                  "Man that better be a par 4."

                  This scene has played out a lot in tournament groups in my experience. Other holes where I remember similar conversations (Milo hole 1 of 27, Trojan regular hole 5, Hornings Meadow horseshoe hole...)

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Thanks for articulating the point Scott

                    I want to say this now I am not opposed to 4's and 5's just not at Seatac or at least it's current setup.

                    I can offer that over the last few years SeaTac has been "a try and get ahead of it project". Now that the transition period is happining the new group is organizing " as to finally get a handle on the TAC". Their efforts should be more than aplauded they should be attended.

                    There is talk about a third 9 that could include holes that are 4's and 5's. I would be totally fine with that.

                    The two holes 14,16 were moved only because players actually birdied them. I thought 14 should have stayed where it was. The current pin is exposed to drives from 16 (to my knowlege 5 players have been hit in Tournament play on this part of the course). In the first two or three CSI/Pats I offered a Temp basket for these two holes on Sat. AM 14 short , PM 16 short. There is some talk about either "planting to protect" the current 14 or moving it 75 ft back down the walking trail towards the 15 tee.

                    I really don't see any room for 12 to move back. A blind shot over last established public access trail at that end of the course seems risky.

                    Attachment
                    this is info from 2005-09 maybe 300 rounds each winter/ summer
                    First line hole numbers
                    second line Winter handicap 1 hardest 18 easiest
                    third line winter scoring average
                    forth line summer handicap 1 hardest 18 easiest
                    last line summer scoring average
                    Last edited by LJ Jubner; February 23rd, 2012, 07:32 AM.
                    rewindb.com

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Mods is it possible to chop this two headed thread into just that two threads? It's pretty obvious where each starts and are vital discussions that should each go forward separately. Thanks
                      rewindb.com

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        next update on Sunday Feb 27th

                        Keep those registrations coming the Open weekend is only a month away.
                        rewindb.com

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by LJ Jubner View Post
                          next update on Sunday Feb 27th

                          Keep those registrations coming the Open weekend is only a month away.
                          Start your own thread Jub! This one is about par!
                          A bad day on the golf course is better than a good day at work!

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                          • #58
                            I would but silly will whine about the forth active CSI thread
                            rewindb.com

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                            • #59
                              Yeah CSI threads are a Par 3, if you made one more you would get a bogey.
                              Sometimes my mind boggles. It's so deep my mind actually boggles.

                              ~ Cyndi Lauper ~

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                I would also like to hijack this thread.

                                So, are the paved trails at Silver Lake always out of bounds?
                                Last edited by LakeStevensBA; February 25th, 2011, 02:02 PM.

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