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  • #31
    Originally posted by sillybizz View Post
    It's nice to see you found a bra that fits properly Silly
    rewindb.com

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    • #32
      Open weekend updated 2nd "step up iron arm" particpant
      rewindb.com

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      • #33
        I agree with treelove..........i play seatac to the best of my ability no matter what the par is. My best score at seatac is par (54) and i did it twice...........i was pretty stoked. If i shot that on the amatuer course at fort steilacoom i would cry and go home and not play disc golf for months or until the anti-depressants wore off. If i go to seatac i want to shoot under +5..........if i go to play fort steilacoom amatuer i want to shoot -10 or better.

        Just step up to the challenge.........not take the path of least resistance.
        WHEN I GROW UP I WANT TO BE A SPIDER BITE.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by olydiscgolf View Post
          Actually Jub, a 1000 rated player should shoot a 56-57 there. The SSA is around 56-57.

          I love how this thread is turning into the standard issue "PAR" debate!

          To take us way off topic, if your looking for par 4's and 5's.....Come help dig holes for the Shelton Springs DGC! Saturday the 26th at 10:00 AM. Bring a shovel and rock bar if you have one.
          Team Disc golf put the SSA at 58.23 for the first round and 58.51 for the second last weekend.

          DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS!!! WHAT THATS SAYS ABOUT PAR!!!! IT MEANS THAT CHRIS IS RIGHT....

          ...about Shelton Springs DGC! Saturday the 26th at 10:00 AM. Bring a shovel and rock bar if you have one.

          oh and a little birdie told me we should have our locks tomorrow. Lock plus prepoured anchors means we just need 19 holes dug and we are playing golf.
          sigpic

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          • #35
            Oh and I still believe "par" is not something you set. You don't just look at a 200ft hole in an open field a decide its a par 5. Holes and course should be built so the average strokes from your relative tee pad creates the desired par. I.e. if Seatac was designed to be a par 54 from what I believe to be Blue(SSA 50-54) tee pads then the course needs to be adjusted because there is more than enough proof that the mark has been missed. Personally I think the space warrants the use of par 4s, maybe find a way to stretch it to a par 60, I would prefer to see that over any shorting.

            Courses should be as the saying goes "built to par" and we should all go play with the intention of being better than par, after all, who's goal is to be just average?
            sigpic

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            • #36
              As course designers now The MC Boys can design and set par to whatever level they want. I will show up, pay, play and whine about how poorly I played not about how par is all screwed up.

              Originally posted by Skookum View Post
              Oh and I still believe "par" is not something you set. You don't just look at a 200ft hole in an open field a decide its a par 5. Holes and course should be built so the average strokes from your relative tee pad creates the desired par. I.e. if Seatac was designed to be a par 54 from what I believe to be Blue(SSA 50-54) tee pads then the course needs to be adjusted because there is more than enough proof that the mark has been missed. Personally I think the space warrants the use of par 4s, maybe find a way to stretch it to a par 60, I would prefer to see that over any shorting.

              Courses should be as the saying goes "built to par" and we should all go play with the intention of being better than par, after all, who's goal is to be just average?
              "Par has been missed"
              thats a good one maybe if you threw farther or putted better or maybe just...

              There is a huge difference between tournament stroke play and handicapped stroke play. The real problem is the stupid rating debate. By using a handicap
              1. you are already trying to level the field artificially
              2. to make your series more attractive competition wise
              3. not skill driven like it should be.

              I find it interesting that at any Ball golf course you just show up, pay and play. NO mention of what my par should or should not be. Want to have some fun
              Go into any Golf Pro shop and tell them par at their course is too low for your game. Know what they would say to you? Maybe some lessons or the pitch and putt around the corner is better suited for your skills.
              FYI
              1. In Ball golf the average player is 18 over
              2. 80% of all ball golfers will never ever break par
              3. Realistic goals most want to just break 80

              In DG we whine about par. Raise the par at the Tac and you will see a 1200 rated round.

              Like Dan said "my personal best is my goal" If it's better than par great if not thats great too. It's still my personal best.
              rewindb.com

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              • #37
                Originally posted by LJ Jubner View Post
                In DG we whine about par. Raise the par at the Tac and you will see a 1200 rated round.
                I could be wrong here, but I don't think what you "claim" par to be has any effect on ratings whatsoever.

                I was curious about this one night when I was posting the results for one of my events. As a test, I submitted the results with an incorrect course par, checked the ratings, then resubmitted the results with the correct par and there was no change. I'd love to hear Chuck Kennedy's feedback on this subject.
                "You won't like me when I am angry, because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources". - The Credible Hulk

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                • #38
                  You are correct Bullseye - I could care less about beating 'par' at a course and I've already beat "par" at the tac so it isn't an attempt to 'dumb it down' as the argument is often made. What is lost in this whole discussion is that par is assigned on an individual hole level! Likewise, 'par' has no effect on ratings, for reasons that should be obvious to folks who care to look into it (ratings compare players to players more than players to course).

                  There seems to be a kind of magical thinking that creating a realistic par set by individual holes would make courses somehow easier - if anyone could explain this to me, I'd be happy to listen and try to understand exactly how this miracle occurs Perhaps discs fly further when par is higher or maybe more trees sprout up when par is lowered?

                  If we want the Tac at its toughest, why not call it par 52 or 50 - then it will become much harder.

                  On the upside, it (par) doesn't matter for much (only 1 small PDGA rule) so the dream will live on for some!

                  BTW - If anyone is interested in some good discussion on course design and a lot about how it is much more than putting in tees and baskets, check out this page: http://www.houckdesign.com/course_design_articles.html



                  Paging Chuck Kennedy or John Houck...
                  Last edited by cefire; February 24th, 2011, 08:50 AM.
                  'Weekend 4 Women':
                  Saturday, June 30th - Sudoku Showdown II - FREE PDGA XC Tier
                  Sunday, July 1st - Seattle SuperClassic - FREE PDGA XC Tier

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                  • #39
                    It's been a long time since I tried to follow a JJ thread.
                    Par and ratings have nothing to do with each other.
                    I can find no logic in his points of view.
                    Perhaps someone with the ability to interpret Jubisms understands what he means...
                    or why he's saying it.

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                    • #40
                      I'm going to hold a tournament at Ferguson Park and then set the "par" at 5 on each hole, that way everyone who plays it will get a rating of at least 1800.
                      Sometimes my mind boggles. It's so deep my mind actually boggles.

                      ~ Cyndi Lauper ~

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                      • #41
                        Not sure what the arguement is. If it takes you 64 throws to get around seatac it still took 64 stroke regardless of the course being par 54 or 60 if ssa is 55 you still threw 9 strokes over the SSA. so the par doesn't matter more than +4 sounds way better than +10

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                        • #42
                          http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/ParGuidelines.pdf

                          Ratings are a derivative function, par is not. Setting ST at par 72 would not change the ratings.

                          This inanity calls for a lunk, http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/ParGuidelines.pdf
                          and the lunk has provided a link.

                          This seems to suggest par means different things to different people.
                          Just like in bolf. The members play it as a par 5, but for the pros it is a par 4.

                          No. 7: 447 yards, PAR-4 ("Briars," 4.118, 7th): A PAR-5 for Ridgewood members known as the Cemetery Hole because George Washington Memorial Park borders it, it requires an uphill drive of at least 290 yards to a plateau on a fairway that slopes left to right (toward the cemetery). Anything shorter leaves a blind second shot to a diminutive green for a hole of this length.

                          They took two holes the members play as par 5s -- the 475-yard 6th and the 466-yard 10th -- and declared them par 4s. etc.

                          OK? It is left as an exercise to the reader to determine hole-by-hole par.
                          What determines 'heavy or light' foliage?
                          What color are the tees? What color are the trees?
                          Do you need to remove your shoes to count to 12?
                          Do you understand the difference between an eagle and an ace?
                          So many questions, sow many seeds, sew mini-skirts, snow many inches.

                          http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/ParGuidelines.pdf
                          Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. - The Dude, 1998.

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                          • #43
                            I agree. Personally I think that you should always challenge yourself. Shooting a 54 at the Tac is a great goal, and something to work for. Shooting a 60 or under is a somewhat decent round for any Gold or Silver player. It seems too easy to raise the the par for those that need to feel better about their game. During a PDGA event ratings are based off of the SSA and the field correct? Not course "par". Somebody please correct me if I'm incorrect. I'm not sure there is an answer for this debate. The way I see it is their are 2 types of golfers those that break 60 and those that don't. I can see some argument why some would want it changed to 60. But really, it's about progessing yourself and your game, and Seatac is all about making you a better golfer. Frankly par shouldn't matter if you are playing for fun, and changing par because the course is tough is for golfers that I personally think don't want to challenge themselves. You play the course and in events play the field, not the par..If you want to change it to 4's great, fine, but that will never make you a better player. It will only give you some artifical feeling of accomplishment for the drive home.
                            "Remember boys this ain't therapy"-Jub.
                            PDGA # 42821
                            Push-ups owed to: thebakedone 1,856.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by LJ Jubner View Post
                              As course designers now The MC Boys can design and set par to whatever level they want. I will show up, pay, play and whine about how poorly I played not about how par is all screwed up.



                              "Par has been missed"
                              thats a good one maybe if you threw farther or putted better or maybe just...

                              There is a huge difference between tournament stroke play and handicapped stroke play. The real problem is the stupid rating debate. By using a handicap
                              1. you are already trying to level the field artificially
                              2. to make your series more attractive competition wise
                              3. not skill driven like it should be.

                              I find it interesting that at any Ball golf course you just show up, pay and play. NO mention of what my par should or should not be. Want to have some fun
                              Go into any Golf Pro shop and tell them par at their course is too low for your game. Know what they would say to you? Maybe some lessons or the pitch and putt around the corner is better suited for your skills.
                              FYI
                              1. In Ball golf the average player is 18 over
                              2. 80% of all ball golfers will never ever break par
                              3. Realistic goals most want to just break 80

                              In DG we whine about par. Raise the par at the Tac and you will see a 1200 rated round.

                              Like Dan said "my personal best is my goal" If it's better than par great if not thats great too. It's still my personal best.
                              I'm not sure I even know where to start... or if it's even worth it, but as I am snowed in today why not.

                              First of all the little barb about us MC boy whining. I don't remember saying anything about my play or our performance because this issues has nothing to do with that. I take pride in stepping back from my skill level (sub 900) to look at these thing objectively. I use the math and methods provided by the PDGA to determine the relative strengths and weakness of individual holes and courses. I do not rely on my gut or my score (because i'm terrible). I assure you as a "designer" (I use that term loosely) we did not set par, we created it. We modified our holes till they hit our desired average strokes based on 1000 rated player (our at least tried our best).

                              As far as handicapping goes, it had zero bearing on the SSA calculations for the event. Handicapping only helps to determine the winner between to players it's does not affect their ability to play (although we may tie one of Crabtrees arms behind his back).

                              Your ball golf points are a little off. The pars in ball golf are created by a professional designer who crafts the course so that Pro golfers from Blue tee pad score an average that meets the par. Many ball golf course have different pars on the same hole (usually from the womans tees).

                              You are right ball golfer don't whine about par because the sport is mature enough after all these years that things like par are UNIFORM between courses. A par 4 on this course is equivalent to a par 4 on that course. Not, "Well on our course we call it a par 3" I wonder though if there was a golf course that had a 600 yard par three would player complain? I will have to always wonder because holes like that don't exist, at least not on PGA level courses.

                              Why even bring ball golf into this as it really speaks more to my points than yours. They use math and science to create balance courses and OMG what is the first question two golfer ask each other when they meet? What is your handicap? As a group they are way more plugged into that stuff than we are.

                              From a competitive stand point if we want to be taken seriously things like using "par" as word that means the same thing regardless of what course you happen to be standing on at the moment is essential. If we are talking about just going and have fun.... well we wouldn't be having this conversation right now, we'd be golfing.

                              What if we replaced the word "par" with "SSA" would it make this conversation easier to follow? They are after all the same thing. (please look it up before contesting this point) The SSA at SeaTac is always above 54 by 2-3 even 4 strokes. If I did the math I'm sure 4 of those holes out there have SSAs between 3.7 and 4.3 or higher. Making the SSA on 4 of the holes at SeaTac SSA 4 (rounded to nearest whole number). These are FACTS objective based on reality facts to dispute them is to seem a crazy person.
                              sigpic

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Skookum View Post
                                What if we replaced the word "par" with "SSA" would it make this conversation easier to follow? They are after all the same thing. (please look it up before contesting this point) The SSA at SeaTac is always above 54 by 2-3 even 4 strokes. If I did the math I'm sure 4 of those holes out there have SSAs between 3.7 and 4.3 or higher. Making the SSA on 4 of the holes at SeaTac SSA 4 (rounded to nearest whole number). These are FACTS objective based on reality facts to dispute them is to seem a crazy person.
                                The nerd has spoken; Calculations Rule Everything Around Me, C.R.E.A.M. Get the money, dolla dolla bills ya'll...

                                But, for real, good debate. Better thread jack.

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