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  • #16
    Krabs won Open not Holley right?
    Relax and enjoy your hair
    TNT Yardworks.com

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    • #17
      For whoever is going to determine the points scheme for the 2011 Wasington State Series, here is my plea: THROW AWAY THE BOTTOM-UP SYSTEM USED IN THE 2010 SEREIS AND REPLACE IT WITH A TOP DOWN SYSTEM!

      I said last year (in the 2010 thread) before the series started that the system used for 2010 needed to be changed. Giving 100 points to last and 100 points + 1 point for each competitor to first is horrible (this is a bottom up system). A top down system gives 100 points to the winner, 99 to 2nd, 98 to 3rd, and so on.

      The proof that I am right has now come in. For the 2010 Open division, Kyle Crabtree and Aaron Holley have apparently tied for first in the series with 471 points. Congrats to both of them on well played tournaments; I have the utmost respect for both of these players and will always strive to reach their level of play. However (with no disrespect to Aaron), In the Series tournaments Kyle finished 1st (championships), 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 6th; and Aaron finished 2nd (championships), 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 9th.

      So, I dare someone to try and defend this tie and the bottom-up points system.

      Hypothetical situation.....if Kyle and Aaron had tied for 2nd in the championships, then Aaron would have won the series without winning any tournaments in the series while beating a player who had won 3 of the series tournaments.

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      • #18
        I agree Kenny.

        I think you should get on board with the 2011 series and help with the point system.
        A bad day on the golf course is better than a good day at work!

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        • #19
          Originally posted by olydiscgolf View Post
          I agree Kenny.

          I think you should get on board with the 2011 series and help with the point system.
          Thanks Chris. I have been thinking about getting more involved, but didnít end up sending my name to Rideout. I think Bob put together a really great report for the 2010 points and itís great that heís volunteered to do it again for 2011, so Iím not sure that there is much for me to add there (other than pushing for a top down points system).

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          • #20
            Hey Kenny, it's not too late to get involved. Just say the word and I'll send you the invite.

            Although the vote on this won't be officially over until next Wednesday, so far, it looks like Jub will be the coordinator in 2011. Normally I wouldn't put a prediction like this out there, but nobody else wants the job so it's easy to guess who will win the election.

            Mike Rideout
            WA ST Approved PDGA Schedule


            4DiscGolf - a tournament directors best friend!!!

            Tournament Directors - register your event HERE

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            • #21
              This conversation about points raises an interesting question

              This conversation about points raises an interesting question

              Should a series be more about winning or participating?
              It's a fine line between these.(imnsho)


              If you look at the stats event participation wains when or after enough events to qualify have been played. This is one of the reasons why having "too many series events" can be a potential problem.

              Top loading 100 down fluctuates wildly. Field of 10 DFL gets the same points as finishing 10th in a field of any number 20, 30, 50, This does encourage players to play more.

              Base + Bonus At least attempts to address the inconsistency in field sizes.
              rewindb.com

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              • #22
                Originally posted by LJ Jubner View Post
                This conversation about points raises an interesting question

                Should a series be more about winning or participating?
                It's a fine line between these.(imnsho)


                If you look at the stats event participation wains when or after enough events to qualify have been played. This is one of the reasons why having "too many series events" can be a potential problem.

                Top loading 100 down fluctuates wildly. Field of 10 DFL gets the same points as finishing 10th in a field of any number 20, 30, 50, This does encourage players to play more.

                Base + Bonus At least attempts to address the inconsistency in field sizes.
                Some people play the series to participate, others play it to win. Its not an either or, its both. The people at the top of the field are playing to win, the people at the bottom are playing to have fun and participate.

                With only 5 events this year, I don't think the issue of too many events came into play.

                The issue that came up for me, was the fact that the smallest event (in terms of field capacity/ lowest point's opportunity) was the last event before the finals. This event was essentially a qualifier only event, there wasn't enough points available for it to matter. A top loading system keeps all events relevant and in turn keeps participation up.


                Your right that "top loading down fluctuates widely" but, the most competition is going to be in the top ten spots, and there wasn't many more than ten qualifiers in most divisions anyway.
                A bad day on the golf course is better than a good day at work!

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Kenny B View Post
                  Thanks Chris. I have been thinking about getting more involved, but didnít end up sending my name to Rideout. I think Bob put together a really great report for the 2010 points and itís great that heís volunteered to do it again for 2011, so Iím not sure that there is much for me to add there (other than pushing for a top down points system).
                  Hey all, I'm working on transposing the 2010 WSS points from bottom up to top down so that all may compare.
                  Fly free and straight to the pin!

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by olydiscgolf View Post
                    A top loading system keeps all events relevant and in turn keeps participation up.
                    Exactly.

                    Except for the series championship, a top-down system makes all tournaments in a series equal, which I think is the point of the series. We cannot say that winning the Whiners in the Woods tournament is better and more important than winning the White River tournament just because it had two courses and more players were able to play. Otherwise, people would think "oh, I'm not going to go to that (insert smaller one course tournament) because even if I win, I can't get more points than I already have."

                    So, with a top-down system, participation will be high for people who want to play and have fun, and participation will be high for people who want to play to compete and win.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by LJ Jubner View Post
                      Top loading 100 down fluctuates wildly. Field of 10 DFL gets the same points as finishing 10th in a field of any number 20, 30, 50, This does encourage players to play more.

                      On the contraty, this is exactly what will encourage players to play. Players who are low in total series points will want to play because they could improve their series standing even if they get last! Players who are high in total series points would be motivated to play to protect their place in the series; in other words, if they don't play and get first, then someone else will get first and could pass them.

                      Originally posted by LJ Jubner View Post
                      Base + Bonus At least attempts to address the inconsistency in field sizes

                      Jub, could you please explain Base + Bonus more? I'm not sure I know what it is.
                      Last edited by Kenny B; October 7th, 2010, 03:00 PM. Reason: additional question

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                      • #26
                        Base of 100 points + a point for everyone you beat no matter how big or samll the field
                        rewindb.com

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by LJ Jubner View Post
                          Base of 100 points + a point for everyone you beat no matter how big or samll the field
                          That's what I've been calling a bottom up system. Are you saying your happy and content with Aaron and Kyle in a tie for first in the series after Kyle won 4 tournaments and Aaron none?!?

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                          • #28
                            Mike Rideout,

                            I would like to participate in the decision making process for the 2011 series (especially which points system will be used), but without being the coordinator. Is this something that will be possible? Or is whoever the coordinator going to be just going drop the hammer down and force whatever points system he wants upon the State Series?

                            Can you please add me to future correspondance regarding the 2011 series?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Kenny B View Post
                              Mike Rideout,

                              I would like to participate in the decision making process for the 2011 series (especially which points system will be used), but without being the coordinator. Is this something that will be possible? Or is whoever the coordinator going to be just going drop the hammer down and force whatever points system he wants upon the State Series?

                              Can you please add me to future correspondance regarding the 2011 series?
                              Hopefully the process will determine the points system not just the Coordinator
                              rewindb.com

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Winning or participation

                                The true participation booster is to count all events and throw no points out. This system also favors a smaller amount of tournaments.

                                It also begs the question, how committed are you to winning.
                                Fly free and straight to the pin!

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